[Rictor]

he is against withdrawing troops from western Europe, he wants to increase the military by 40,000 people and specifically special forces. These will most likely be going to Iraq, thoug I heard otherwise, he is as always flip-flopping so its hard to know where he stands.

he has not made a peep about the military's overly large budget (400 billions annually), nor about the fact that a huge percentage of that (around 40% from what I know) is secret.

I'm trying to find that wesbite where you can view people's voting records, does someone have the link?

[Rictor]

here we go

http://www.vote-smart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=S0421103

check Defense, its pretty much even as far as funding goes.
I am also reffering to his recent militaristic bravado at the DNC and general disposition which holds than the military should not be shrunk.

[Ford Prefect]

It's the rabid nationalism more than anything else that really makes me want to throw up. All these people who think their flag is the morning and evening star. It's just a frustrating reminder of what never seems to change.

[Bobboau]

wow-hey-look, the nominated Bush!

[Blue Lion]

Well duh, Sept 11th. Otherwise the terrorists win, Sept 11th.

[Kosh]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
It's the rabid nationalism more than anything else that really makes me want to throw up. All these people who think their flag is the morning and evening star. It's just a frustrating reminder of what never seems to change.

I agree with you except on your last point: Things have been changing, but for the worse. It was not always like this. Of course there were those who were these flag waving idiots, but at least people who don't worship the flag were not called "terrorists", "traitors", or flat out "unpatriotic".

[Ford Prefect]

America has had previous bouts with this syndrome at various points in history. But even disregarding that, this reflects the unavoidable course that all global powers eventually take: the delusions of immortality and moral supremacy. Most people do not want to think that they are just another link in the chain of history.

[aldo_14]

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious

[01010]

I hate patriotism, I can't ****ing stand it, it makes me sick and it's around the world last time I checked. In fact I know how we could stop patriotism I think, instead of putting stars and stripes on our flags, we should put pictures of our parents ****ing, gather people around that flag and see your dad hunched over your moms big 4x4 butt, see if any boon rally mentality can circle around that nice little ****ing image

Bill Hicks had the right idea.

[Mongoose]

One question:  What the hell is wrong with patriotism?  Is there something inherently bad about showing one's love of one's country and what it stands for?  Please, enlighten me...

[Rictor]

I think people fail to differentiate between patriotism and nationalism. Patriotism the the sort of benign love of your country and countrymen. Mostly everyone has that. Thats cheering for you team at the Olympics, even though they lost 5 ****ing games out of 6...bastards. Ah, I still love 'em.

Nationalism is not benign however, it is the belief that your country and those who inhabit it are inately superior to all others peoples and nations. Its is the belief that you must be supportive of the government no mater what, that the President can do no wrong. Its the the failiure to accept reason and fact, because it does not fit in with your country's official party line.

[Ford Prefect]

I make no distinction. A country is created for a practical purpose: to organize the people and provide for our needs. I do not believe that this function demands our love or our thanks, only that we contribute what we can as long as we live here. Love of a country is meaningless because a country does not stand for anything; it is a dynamic entity whose supposedly steadfast principles can be made to support just about anything by skilled leaders. It's the same as trying to attach spiritual beliefs to an institution. Why should I love this country more than any other simply because I live here? I'm certainly glad that I don't live in an oppressive society, but I see nothing to love. The flag? That's idol worship. Principles? They always shift. The people? All people are fundamentally the same.

As far as I can see, the only thing that love of country accomplishes is to make you, as Ambrose Bierce put it, "The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerors." I have my own, ever-evolving beliefs, and while I would never expect a country to always coincide with them, I do not believe that I owe it my love, especially since it was created for the sole purpose of sustaining us.

[aldo_14]

Patriotism tends to blind people to the faults of their own country.  It's used to gag dissenters, to factionalise one group of people against another.

The problem of patriotism is not what is it represents, but what it can be used to do.

[01010]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
I make no distinction. A country is created for a practical purpose: to organize the people and provide for our needs. I do not believe that this function demands our love or our thanks, only that we contribute what we can as long as we live here. Love of a country is meaningless because a country does not stand for anything; it is a dynamic entity whose supposedly steadfast principles can be made to support just about anything by skilled leaders. It's the same as trying to attach spiritual beliefs to an institution. Why should I love this country more than any other simply because I live here? I'm certainly glad that I don't live in an oppressive society, but I see nothing to love. The flag? That's idol worship. Principles? They always shift. The people? All people are fundamentally the same.

As far as I can see, the only thing that love of country accomplishes is to make you, as Ambrose Bierce put it, "The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerors." I have my own, ever-evolving beliefs, and while I would never expect a country to always coincide with them, I do not believe that I owe it my love, especially since it was created for the sole purpose of sustaining us.

Are you in my brain? Seriously, that was incredibly well written and it puts the finger on the exact point I was trying to make.

I'm not patriotic to my country, I love where I live for how it makes me feel, not because I was ****ing born here and I am just supposed to love it.

I find patriotism stupid more when it is blind, however patriotism in and of itself is a blindness and the first step on a slippery slope in my eyes. I feel no love for my country simply because everyone else does, that's like somebody telling me that I should love whatever is currently doing the rounds on MTV because they all love it.

[redmenace]

How many people have actually watched the DNC Convention? And watched it with the same type of critical view...

[01010]

Because the Democrats aren't the ones currently ****ing it up in power perhaps?

[redmenace]

umm that is a stupid reason

[Kazan]

Trusting that Dixiecrat Zell Miller and thinkin he's actually a democrat even is just like listening to the Rupert Murdoch Propaganda Network

[Ford Prefect]

SOooooooooo... anyone just watch Bush speak? I especially loved it when he said "to everything there is a season." A Neoconservative seriously quoting a hippy song-- I thought I'd seen everything.

[Corsair]

DID ANYBODY WATCH THAT?
I couldn't stand that speech. That's besides the point.

WHAT THE HELL was that when Cheney got rushed out of the building by the Secret Service?!?