[aldo_14]

Originally posted by ionia23


 As i said earlier, any hope Chechnya ever had for turning into the fundamentalist nation it wanted to be is gone.

I don't think Chechnya wanted to be a fundamentalist nation, just an independent one.

The rest of that article....

Probably not accurate to draw a comparison between the Chechen situation and the Us-Middle East one, because Chechnya is more political than religious IMO (excepting the fundamentalist hardcore that are commiting these terrorist acts).  And also that the issue is not the leader of the Chechen terrorists, but the civllians caught on the ground.

Also
"In Russia, democracy is who shouts the loudest," he said. "In the U.S., it's who has the most money." - Putin, today..  He's right about the US democracy, but I'm not sure Putin is the one to preach about the way forward......

The Russian president also justified the rescue operation in Beslan, conceding that it took time to mobilize the operation.

He said Russian special forces stormed the school knowing they themselves were likely to be killed.

In one dramatic moment, Putin said Russian security forces overheard a disturbing walkie-talkie conversation between the terrorists:

"What are you doing? Why? I hear some noise. What's going on? I'm just in the middle of shooting some children."

Is curious... did the Russians deliberately storm the building of their own volition, then?  When did they here this conversation - before, or during the fight?

[Vanguard]

Originally posted by ionia23

Putin's comments came a few weeks after the U.S. granted asylum to Ilias Akhmadov, the "foreign minister" of the Chechen separatist movement.

Does this mean we're harboring a terrorist sympathizer?  Talk about double standards.  

Funny that Putin managed to get in a plug against the U.S. in there too.  You'd figure he'd have more important issues to address in a speech right now.

[aldo_14]

Incidentally....



Lookylikey?

[Vanguard]

Is that the bad dude from that really boring Bond movie?  

I sure hope they don't have the same agenda!

[vyper]

So what you're saying is we need a suave DB7 driving spy to kill Putin and Russia will sort itself out?

Who's going to be the bond girl?

[Vanguard]

Maybe somebody other than Denise Richards this time?

[Stunaep]

Some interesting stuff I have found from the radio channel/web page of Radio Liberty/Radio Free Europe.

First from the web page:
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2004/09/fa64c366-b6e3-4433-9665-6cae28e08f76.html

The Russian authorities say it was never their intention to storm the school and end the siege by force. They say the assault by special forces came as a last-minute decision when the hostage takers began shooting at ambulance drivers who had come to collect the bodies of dead hostages on 3 September. At that moment, another group of hostages managed to escape from the school, shooting and explosions broke out, forcing commandos to act. But the source of the explosions still remains unclear. Did the hostage takers unwittingly set off booby traps they had planted throughout the building, as some have suggested, or did Russian commandos disguised as medical personnel initiate hostilities by firing a rocket-propelled grenade or other weapon, as other versions have it?

Military analyst Pavel Felgenhauer disputes the official version of events as presented by the government. He tells RFE/RL that the idea that Russian forces decided to break the siege at the last minute in reaction to the militants' actions is a fabrication meant to cover up the disastrous outcome of what he believes was a planned assault. Just as in the hostage-taking drama at the Dubrovka Theater in Moscow in October 2002, he accuses the authorities of hiding the truth from the Russian public.

Felgenhauer says the idea that the special forces mounted a last-minute, spontaneous attack is not technically credible, as the offensive was backed up by attack helicopters -- proving advance coordination: "Although there is an air base near Beslan, I know how much time it takes to transmit instructions to pilots. Even if the helicopter was fueled, armed, and waiting, and the pilots were already suited up -- if it had been a spontaneous decision -- they would have had to wait for instructions. An order would have had to be given. They would have had to get aboard, to warm up the engine. They could not have made it to the school in less than half an hour or even more."

And what I just heard: According to Radio Free Europe, a georgian reporter has footage of the russian troops starting the conflict, by blowing a small hole in the wall under the cover of the medical trucks that came to take away the bodies. What makes things even more suspicious, is that the journalist was arrested by the FSB when leaving the country, and charged with traveling without a visa. All facts however, point to that the man did have a visa. When an answer was demanded from the FSB, they said that he was being detained until all problems are cleared out, but refused to say, where he was being detained.

[aldo_14]

Supposedly, a witness said the initial explosion was caused by one of the bombs (sticky taped) on the ceiling falling down. (pinch of salt territory here, granted)

I'm positive that russian military helicopters had been circling the scene for the entire time the crisis lasted, however.  I remember a BBC reporter mentioning it.  So the scramble time is a non-issue.

Personaly, I kind of doubt it was a planned assault because it was such an almighty botch job.  Apparently the Russian commandos and the Alpha squad (Spetznaz IIRC) had no idea what the others entry plan was..... hence why there was a 10-hour long shootout.

EDIT;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3627406.stm

Interesting conflict of stories;

"Marat Khamayev, 15 , also spoke to Kommersant

"Initially we were escorted to the toilet together, then they stopped doing that, and only took the little kids. All the time the explosives were hanging above us - they used adhesive tape to fix it there.

"Before the assault the bandits started arguing with each other about something. I've spent a long time in Chechnya, I know the Chechen language, and they weren't speaking Chechen - they were just speaking a strange language like Arabic, and also Ingush.

"One of the gunmen was reading the Koran constantly, and I counted exactly 23 gunmen altogether. The leader was on the roof the whole time with a sniper's rifle. We realised that, because the others went to him for advice.

"The older pupils were forced to carry desks to barricade the windows. When the assault started one of the bandits shouted 'I'll save you'. Everybody ran towards him and then he blew himself up, killing many people.

"The whole time they never let anybody sleep - if somebody dozed off they would shake him awake again, saying 'no sleeping!' The explosion took place under the roof - there was no external explosion... When the assault came I pulled two girls out with me." "

NB: 'there was no external explosion'.... sounds like an odd turn of phrase for a 15-year old.  but it could be due to translation.

"Diana Gadzhinova, 14-year-old girl hostage, speaking to Izvestiya newspaper

"It took us all by surprise. We were told there would be talks and we were ordered to lie face down [in the gym]... Then there was an explosion in the yard. Then there was shooting... [My sister and I] stayed where we were, lying on the floor. But suddenly there was another explosion above us and part of the ceiling fell in. People were screaming, there was panic.

"I looked up and saw some children lying on the floor covered in blood and not moving. There was a dead lady lying beside me. Torn-off arms and legs were lying everywhere. There were bombs hanging on the rope they'd strung up between the basketball hoops, across the gym. And now these bombs began going off, one after the other, coming closer and closer to us. Anyone who could get up ran screaming to the windows and the back entrance corridor. Alina and I were near a window [both sisters managed to escape unscathed]." "

EDIT2: RE the second one, the editor of Izvestiya was apprently forced out by the Kremin

NB:  If this was a deliberate and planned storming, it will go down as the worst in history - 40% of hostages injured, 40% killed.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by aldo_14
Supposedly, a witness said the initial explosion was caused by one of the bombs (sticky taped) on the ceiling falling down. (pinch of salt territory here, granted)

Allow me to throw in something to validate that.  The guy who works the night shift at the convenience store up the street from here emigrated from Russia 3 years ago and has a friend who lives in the town where this occured.  He said the same thing.

In his variation,

A few kids were shot prior to the two negotiators coming in to pick up bodies.  Reportedly, the hostage takers were getting 'bored' with the lack of progress.

While a few bodies were being removed a bomb fell off the wall, detonating.  The two negotiators happened to be special forces, pulled their guns, and shot two of the hostage takers immediately.  The kids ran, the hostage takers started mowing them down, a few set off their explosives.  You can assemble the rest in your heads.  I don't think anyone necessarily screwed up, except perhaps the hostage takers thinking that this would somehow gain freedom for Chechnya.

[Flipside]

From here on outwards, now there are two versions, we will never ever know for certain which one is true. It's a classic trick

I just don't know, I think America trying to link these more closely to the Middle Eastern groups than they actually are linked, and consistently pointing out that they are all 'Muslims' is a very dangerous path to take as well

[Vanguard]

Sadly, Russia's military isn't known for its performance in these situations.  The "massive firepower" doctrine probably only compounded the crisis.

[ionia23]

I'm not sure there's any other way of handling it at all.  Those kids were dead one way or the other, it was a question of how many.

Mind you, it wasn't the russian army that loaded that place with explosives.  They were there to save lives, not take them (save the hostage takers of course).  fundamental difference here that people really need to remember.

[Vanguard]

I just hope the next time whoever is in charge realizes they're going to want a counter-terror force that won't exacerbate the situation.  

A mistake is a mistake, no matter how you look at it, regardless of who was responsible.

[ionia23]

oh oh, this is RICH .  Straight from CNN

A November win by Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry would put the United States at risk of another "devastating" terrorist attack, Vice President Dick Cheney told supporters Tuesday.

Rictor will have a field day with this one.  (I mean that in a complimentary kinda way)

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by ionia23
I'm not sure there's any other way of handling it at all.  Those kids were dead one way or the other, it was a question of how many.
 

That's probably true, I think.  As one of the commentators in the papers pointed out, if the terrorists were refusing to give food or water to the hostages they (the Russians) would have been forced to storm the building sooner rather than later.

Originally posted by ionia23
oh oh, this is RICH .  Straight from CNN

A November win by Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry would put the United States at risk of another "devastating" terrorist attack, Vice President Dick Cheney told supporters Tuesday.

It's simply breathtaking how low these people will stoop to win a few votes..... playing the 'fear' card to scare people into voting for them.... it's so morally repugnant an election tactic I don't think I really need to comment further.

[Janos]

Originally posted by aldo_14

It's simply breathtaking how low these people will stoop to win a few votes..... playing the 'fear' card to scare people into voting for them.... it's so morally repugnant an election tactic I don't think I really need to comment further.

A: "If you vote for Kerry, the terrorists win!"
B: "That's right mah fella! USA USA Iowa Sheep****istan Proud!"
C: "what"
A and B: "ZOMG TERRIST"

[Gloriano]

However, this does not mean that we will launch nuclear strikes."

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/08/russia.video/index.html

Okey now 2 super powers are hunting terrorists (USA and Russian) when China joins too

[vyper]

Ah, more people to **** our rights away...