[ionia23]

I can see reason and common sense aren't going to cut it around here.  Fine.  The whole thing was a setup by the KGB to further support for the extermination of the Chechens.

[Stunaep]

Reason and common sense don't work in a country with a 90 year track record of conspiracies, atrocities, and violence. We're talking about a country who has officially stated, that they will use force against their neighboring countries if the don't respect the human rights of russians living there (while completely ignoring human rights in their own soil) fact, a country who has blamed the screw-ups of their own secret service on fact, who has effectively eliminated freedom of speech and free media in their country, fact, who is making at least one completely unfounded attack on the treatment of Russians in estonia a month, (russians who are completely free to leave our country, but refuse to so, because the life in russia sucks monkey balls) fact who is the only one to benefit from the last two terrorist attacks, and not by a small amount fact, and who, after having two days to surround the school with special forces, most of whom have KGB training, let some of the terrorists escape fact.

I'm not saying the russians shouldn't have barged in guns blazing. I'm just saying blaming everything on the chechens, just because the russian media sais so, in spite of evidence pointing to the contrary, is naive at best.

If you'd take everything ITAR-TASS sais about Estonia at face value, then you'd probably put us next to South-Korea in terms of respecting human rights. I think you have the brains to figure out whether that's true or not.

[edit]
actually, belay the part about the three escaped terrorists. Since today morning, the russian newschannels have said the following.

First: Three terrorists were managed to escape.
Second: Three terrorists were captured alive.
Third: All terrorists were caught and destroyed.
Fourth: The number of terrorists is still unknown.

Tell me this doesn't sound suspicious.

[Ghostavo]

322 have died, many of those being children

[Gloriano]

That was big mistake going there guns blazing

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Stunaep


another suspicious fact
After having two days to surround the school, the russian special forces, most of whom have KGB training, let several of the terrorists escape. Go figure.

Not really.

The outer cordon was likely police & militia - there may have been a lack of co-ordination with special forces.

This was an IA, not a planned assault - so it would likely have been chaos within the school

The key concern with these terrorists was stopping them blowing themselves up with hostages, rather than capture.  They possibly didn't even expect them to run, rather to find the nearest landmine and set it off.

There were literally hundreds of hostages - including adults - many of whom were injured, running about.  The focus would be to get them safe and secure, and this would have complicated the operations.

You're talking about an operation to rescue an estimated 1,000 or so hostages (many who would be severely dehydrated), against terrorists prepared to kill themselves whilst detonating high explosives, launched in extreme haste.  I'd hardly be surprised if some of the terrorists did get away.

[Gank]

The actions within the school shouldnt have mattered, the Russians have had several days to cordon it off properly, nobody should have got out.

Regarding the Chechnya link:
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2004/09/7898e9d4-9756-4010-b2a0-7ea30380edbe.html
For Janos:

Basaev claimed responsibility for the October 2002 Moscow theater hostage taking after it occurred, and is widely believed to have masterminded, if not actually directed in person, the June raids into Ingushetia. But www.kavkazcenter.com, which is sympathetic to Basaev, carried on 1 September a denial that he is in any way connected to the events in Beslan. If one lends credence to that denial, then one logical conclusion is that the Beslan perpetrators may have served under Basaev and tapped his tactical expertise, then staged the Beslan raid independently.

Reuters on 2 September quoted North Ossetian Interior Minister Kazbek Dzantiev as saying that the Beslan hostage takers include both Ingush and Chechens, and that "they speak good Russian." Kavkazcenter.com, for its part, quoted Dzantiev as saying that there are also Ossetians and Russians among the militants. That Ossetians, who in contrast to all other North Caucasus ethnic groups are Christian, not Muslim, and who have traditionally supported Russia ever since their territory was voluntarily incorprated into the Tsarist Empire in 1774, should make common cause with the Ingush is surprising; that some Russians should join them is, at first glance, doubly so. But that solidarity could well be the product of shared despair at the poverty and corruption that, to varying degrees, bedevils all the North Caucasus republics. Such broadbased rejection of Russia's policies towards the North Caucasus calls into question President Vladimir Putin's repeated assertions that Islamic fundamentalism and Chechnya-based groups with links to Al-Qaeda are behind the recent spate of terrorist attacks in Russia. Valerii Andreev, head of the North Ossetian branch of Russia's Federal Security Service, dismissed the hostage takers' ethnicity on 2 September as irrelevant.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Gank
The actions within the school shouldnt have mattered, the Russians have had several days to cordon it off properly, nobody should have got out.

 

True, but i wouldn't construe what did happen as the Russians deliberately letting 3 of the terrorists escape, either.

[redmenace]

Being Reported:
Death Toll Rises in Russia School Standoff
Over 344 People, Including 155 Children, Killed; Putin Orders Regional Borders Closed

[Gank]

Originally posted by aldo_14
True, but i wouldn't construe what did happen as the Russians deliberately letting 3 of the terrorists escape, either.

Nope, does make them look pretty incompetent though.

[Janos]

Originally posted by ionia23


You're probably right.  Plus it beats the alternative, such as supporting them.

NO MIDDLE GROUND EXISTS

[Gloriano]

FSB was not even ready, and failed big time but. What can you expect from FSB who are corrupted and there is criminal activity inside FSB... (hard line russian Generals must very happy now:rolleyes:

It's really sad that over 100 childrens did die (because russians can't handle that kind situation)

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by redmenace
Being Reported:
Death Toll Rises in Russia School Standoff
Over 344 People, Including 155 Children, Killed; Putin Orders Regional Borders Closed

I get the nasty feeling Putin may be angling for a purge.

Originally posted by Gank


Nope, does make them look pretty incompetent though.

You make that sound surprising..........

[Janos]

Originally posted by Holy Imperial Gloriano
FSB was not even ready, and failed big time but. What can you expect from FSB who are corrupted and there is criminal activity inside FSB... (hard line russian Generals must very happy now:rolleyes:

It's really sad that over 100 childrens did die (because russians can't handle that kind situation)

The "Ministery of Internal Affairs' security force" is really efficient, brute, but efficient. In a good old Russian "cure the aids by killing the patient" way, but sometimes it just works like that.

I think they might have managed to make the resolve of this crisis a bit, if even not much, better, if the terrorists hadn't shot escaping children and Russians hadn't "LET'S ROLL".

Russian people are in the streets, claiming blood and "harder foreign diplomacy". Well thank God they aren't an democracy, and Putin is not bat**** insane, but it's a bit worrying.
See, rooting out the Chechen rebels - and more importantly the foreign mujahideen and islamists which got hold of the state in late 1990s - is a pretty sound and good idea, especially if reconstruction would start. Hearts and minds.
However, the Russian strategy is more like
"Let's bomb that village! Let's kill those rebels! Let's bomb that village! What civilians, there aren't any left--- oops erase erase, bomb that village! What reconstruction? These guys must pay for it!"
Obviously the ****ing best idea ever.

[Rictor]

Hmmm, reminds me of the situation in Saudi Arabia where 3 terrorists also slipped by the military blockade surrounding the building. Now of course, this is not to imply that maybe, maybe someone looked the other way for a few seconds. No, perish the thought.

ionia, you just like the word "terrorist" and don't feel you have to do any thinking beyond that. Or are you naive enough to believe that the government, especially the Russian government and especially under Putin, will not lie or distort the truth? For ****s sake, the official story is almost always a lie or half-truth. The Putin government, and by extension the military, has an agenda. Its job is not to be nice or to be truthful or to make people happy, its job is to serve that agenda. Wow, big surprise there, kind of like 95% of other governments on Earth.  

And if we're going to get into crimes, then:

Russian crimes = a nation in ruins and over 150,000 people dead (probably more, but who's counting eh). Several million suffering.
Chechen crimes = several hundred dead (Theatre incident and now this).

But because the Russian army has uniforms, their crimes are ignored. They're not terrorist, they...what?


Oh, and Stunaep, yes there is a free media in Russia, though its not very strong. Yes, Putin has taken steps to silence dissent, but its still a long way from an outright dictatorship.

Case in point, an awesome alternative media source, run from Moscow by mostly expats. Funny as hell too.
www.exile.ru

[Janos]

Originally posted by Rictor

And if we're going to get into crimes, then:

Russian crimes = a nation in ruins and over 150,000 people dead (probably more, but who's counting eh). Several million suffering.
Chechen crimes = several hundred dead (Theatre incident and now this).

But because the Russian army has uniforms, their crimes are ignored. They're not terrorist, they...what?

They are not terrorists, because they A) work for an army [which may do horrible ****, but they're just a tool anyways]
B) the army itself is propably gaining a lot from the conflict [It's the Russia!], but it has definately been the Army's decision to go to Chechnya. Instead it was the dudes WHO USE THE ARMY. Army is a tool, period. Note that I am not denoying atrocities committed by Russian army, but I am not aware of any unbiased studies which tell us how coordinated and common it is. The nature of Chechnyan conflict makes solid estimations nearly impossible and forces us to play on speculations. ****. If you can point one, thanks in advance.

Chechens are also pretty far from innocent  - there has been pretty horrible **** happening on both sides in both conflicts.

However I just decided to point out that you, Rictor, in you above-standard morality sense should know that lesser of two evils is still evil. Killing 300 people - 100 were kids, or so I've heard - is still bad. Killing civilians randomly is bad.
However, Russian army atrocities do not justify the actions of Chechens. Yes, they help us understand the reasons and motives behind them, but they are still morally [from my viewpoint, note that I am a relativist, maybe] repugnant. Neither can Russian army's future actions be justified based on this incident.

[Rictor]

I never tried to claim that the Chechens (Palestinians, Iraqi insurgents etc, depedning on the discussion) are innocent, only that both sides are guilty (to varying degrees of course).

I have made it clear on many occasions that I do not support violence against civilians, and I stand by that. I disagree with both the Chechen rebels and the Russian army's methods. But while I do not support the Russian goal, to occupy Chechnya, I do support the Chechen's goal, to end the occupation. And thats the real difference in my opinion. The end goal is still good, despite what has been done to achieve it, and though I do not support the way in which they are fighting, at least I support what they are fighting for.

If they want an Islamic state, so be it. Thats self-determination. And if they

___

Also, if individual soldiers within the Russian army are not to be held respnsible, then why should individual rebels be held responsible for their actions? All of these people who held up the school, they should be set free, cause they were just following orders.
See, works both ways?

[Bobboau]

it's a lot easier to end up in an army if you don't want to be there than a 'rebel' group (also not wanting to be there)

[Rictor]

thats a rather poor excuse, don't you think? We're talking about adults here, not little children. You make your own decisions, and you are held accountable for them.

[Bobboau]

I know 'rebels' do on occasion run through a place and force people to help them fight, but national drafts are more common.

[Stunaep]

Originally posted by Rictor

Oh, and Stunaep, yes there is a free media in Russia, though its not very strong. Yes, Putin has taken steps to silence dissent, but its still a long way from an outright dictatorship.

Should have elaborated on that, I meant free TV-media, which is since the social limb-cutting of Vladimir Kisselyov effectively dead, bar a few channels, that are produced in Moscow, but shown only in foreign countries.