Author Topic: Opa!  (Read 6782 times)

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Offline Flipside

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No, those random mutations are what got it started in the first place. Single celled animals weren't trying to get out of the water and turn into apes. That's the way things went.

Yes, as time went on, Evolution seperated out onto seperate paths and started to evolve more specialised 'tools' for their niche, but even in that case, for every species that devised a working technique, their are 50 that died out for developing a different technique that didn't work as well.

There is assumed to be about 20 different triloblasts (creatures that have 3 layers, outside, inside and 'within' for organs etc) Of that 20 types, only 1 actually survived to continue. That was a mixture of the right time, the right place, and sheer luck.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Evolution is the selection of random genetic mutation + genetic crossover (from parents).

 (well, on a simplified level it is, anyways.  I know there are other sociological aspects affecting that selection, and other stuff, etc, etc)

 

Offline Bobboau

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ok, lets put it this way, mutation is to evolution what motor oil is to a car, it's criticle and it wouldn't work with out it but there is a lot more important things going on, most of what evolution is, is the selection process, and I'd say diverse but exsisting features probly get acted on a lot more than mutations.
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Offline Flipside

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Exactly. Giraffes didn't walk around wanting a longer neck, it was just that those with a slight genetic mutation which gave them a longer neck survived better, and therefore bred, passing on that gene.

Homosexuality doesn't work like that, it's not passed on from parent to child, it skips families and countries etc.

 

Offline Bobboau

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homosexuality could simply be a resesive gene, or a side effect of something else, or both, or something else entierly (like anomolus hormonal levels dureing a pregnancy).
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Flipside

Homosexuality doesn't work like that, it's not passed on from parent to child, it skips families and countries etc.


Maybe it can if it's recessive... IIRC some genetic traits are dormant except in certain combinations.  Like hair colour, for example.

Of course, homosexuality could simply be a different manifestation of a very common gene - i.e. maybe it's a tendency many people have, but which only becomes, um, 'active' with the effect of certain social tendencies or pressures.  In whichs case it'd be a combination of genetics, societal pressures and choice in response to said pressures.

EDIT; of course, what about bisexuality?  That sure as hell wouldn't be a barrier to reproduction, and IIRC was common/accepted in ancient civillisations like Greece.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Offline Flipside

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hehehe Possibly, but that still doesn't explain the 'social sex' in Bonobo monkeys for example. Genetic throwbacks could occur in the same family etc, but the fact it happens all over the world suggests that we all share a common bi-sexual ancestor.

And yes, Bisexuality was very common in Greece, it's even been suggested that, were it not for self-placed social barriers, mankind would be a bisexual race.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Bonobos srew like there's no tomoro, chimps groom each other, humans engage in volent and bloody wars, diferent animals diferent socal bonding methods.

Bonobos, while a good example of homosexuality in animals and other such things, are an anomoly, very few animals are THAT sexualy active. there close relation to us does complicate things when discussing humans however, but you can't use them to say anything about the role of homosexuality (ect) in all animals (or anything outside closly related primates, wich would include ourselves as mantioned).
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
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Offline Flipside

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Indeed, they are the closest possible relative to humans, only 1.6% DNA difference. However, as has been pointed out, that 1.6% could tell the other 98.4% to behave completely differently ;)

Bonobo's use sex to replace violence, rather than argue, they have sex, that calms the situation down and avoids a fight. That is how Bonobos bond and stay in their groups, else they would be just as violent and destructive as their chimpanzee cousins.

The thing is that, my cousin is just as likely to have a homosexual child as a tribe in the deepest Amazon. If that is the case, then this genetic throwback must go back to when both my cousins family and the Amazon tribe were part of the same 'Primate' source which carried this gene for one reason or the other. Assuming homosexuality is genetic, of course :)

 

Offline Flipside

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http://home.earthlink.net/~ekerilaz/weerdingemen.html

http://pages.zoom.co.uk/lgs/facts2.html#5

'Gay mythology has a strong hold on the imagination of many people in society. The truth about lesbians and gay men is, in most cases, much more mundane.
Homosexuality is rare The incidence of homosexuality in any given human society has consistently been reckoned as being between one and ten per cent. Gay people exist in cultures all over the world, and have done throughout recorded history.

Homosexuality is something that is learned/taught
 It is commonly believed that young people in particular are vulnerable to any encouragement to become homosexual. This is despite the fact that over 99% of gay people originate from an upbringing that is strictly heterosexual, and if sexual orientation was purely dependent upon outside influences there would be no gay people at all in homophobic societies like the United Kingdom. As Michael B King and Pat Pattison state:

Most children who develop a homosexual orientation have heterosexual parents. Indeed, if social learning hypotheses are credible it is a wonder that a homosexual orientation develops at all in the face of strong family and societal models of heterosexuality." (British Medical Journal, 3 August 1991)

One particularly common and nasty myth is that men become homosexual after being sexually interfered with or 'corrupted' by gay adults when they are young. But if every boy who is sexually abused became homosexual, the number of gay men in the world would be well in excess of 10%.

Homosexuals want to have sex with ANYONE of the same sex
 This is a result of the tendency to think of gay people purely in sexual terms, rather than as being human beings that do all the other normal things that people do. Gay people are defined as such by their sexuality, but so are heterosexuals. Being gay doesn't mean having sex 24 hours a day, gay people also cook, go shopping, watch telly, etc. It doesn't occur to many heterosexuals that a gay person might actually find them unattractive and respond with "Don't flatter yourself!"

This myth is also fuelled by the previous two; if gay people are thin on the ground it logically follows that they must be in a constant state of sexual frustration, and are seeking to increase their numbers by trying to persuade heterosexuals to become homosexual. The infamous American homophobe Anita Bryant summed it up when she said "They cannot reproduce, therefore they must recruit." In the main it is true that most gay people who are part of a gay community know plenty of gay people they can choose from (or may, in fact, be in a monogamous relationship), and it would be ludicrous to risk offending or alienating a poor unsuspecting heterosexual who is bound to say no!

Another form of this myth is that all gay men are 'promiscuous'; that they are always having sex with each other, and as many different men as possible. Some people claim that this is based on observation, but it is observation of a very limited sample of gay men. The vast majority of gay people are isolated and have considerably less sex than the average heterosexual.

Homosexuals abuse children
 The majority of child sex abuse is committed by heterosexual men, usually within the family. Again, the lumping together of all forms of sexual 'perversion' creates this myth and it is reinforced by the tendency of the media to report child abuse as 'homosexual' child abuse or 'homosexual' paedophilia if a boy is molested by a man, whereas if a girl is molested by a man it is simply referred to as child abuse, never as 'heterosexual child abuse'.

The important point here is to distinguish between consensual sex and non-consensual sexual abuse. Rape is NOT sex. Rape is a form of violence that uses sex to hurt people, and the type of personality that is capable of sexually abusing another human being has no relation to which gender a person wants to make love with. King and Pattison point out that the evidence indicates that children of both sexes and adult women are often assaulted by the same man (Multiple paraphilic diagnoses among sex offenders, G. Abel, J. Becker, J. Cunningham-Rather. M.Mittleman, JL. Rouleau; Bull Ann Academy of Psychiatric Law 1988; 16:153-68) '

Gay men dress up in women's clothes
 Transvestism is a totally separate phenomenon from homosexuality. The majority of transvestites are heterosexual men, very often married with children. Some gay men do dress up on occasion, but usually it is as female impersonators ("drag") on stage, or else just for a laugh as fancy dress when going out. Transvestism is a heterosexual fetish; a man's desire for a woman's body expressed by wearing the clothes that simultaneously hide and mystify it. Most gay people look - and dress - just like anyone else.

All gay men practice anal intercourse every time they have sex
 This myth reflects the preoccupation of heterosexual society with penetration, and tells us more about heterosexuals than it does about gay people! In fact, anal intercourse is a sexual activity that is practised by people - heterosexual, gay, lesbian, etc. - alike, and is no more or less popular among gay people than it is among heterosexuals (about 25% in both cases).

Just to keep things on keel ;)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2004, 10:12:03 am by 394 »

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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What always amuses me is that nobody ever complains about the lesbians they see on the internet.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline Flipside

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Another interesting fact is that Darwin never ever used the phrase 'Survival of the fittest'. That was coined by a reporter and had the upside of convincing everyone that they knew what Darwin was talking about, and the downside of convincing everyone that they knew what Darwin was talking about ;)

 

Offline Clave

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Quote
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
What always amuses me is that nobody ever complains about the lesbians they see on the internet.


I'm sure some people do, but it's a pretty small number...

The whole gay debate should be happening imo.  It's like persecuting people who wear polo shirts instead of t-shirts.  Yes I know that's simplistic, but people should be left alone to do whatever (legal) things they want in privacy....
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Clave


I'm sure some people do, but it's a pretty small number...
 


Some lesbians are ugly.

:nervous:

 

Offline TrashMan

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Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14


EDIT;actually, you're worse than I thought... comparing homosexuality to having a '3rd arm growing out of your arse'.  So, you don't accept it under your moral code or whatever personal bias you choose, and it becomes excusable to treat these people as being less than human - 'not normal' in your own words.

///Treating them as being less than human? When did I say that?

I'll tell you what, I'd prefer to be a fair, free-thinking and tolerant person rather than 'normal'.   I'd rather not be another mindless sheep, ready to swallow up and espouse the most bigoted, biased ****e because someone told me that's the way I should think, and damned be the evidence.

///Ahh...yes. This was so expected. The uber-liberal, no-backbone people have such a strong urge to attack anyone who doesn't agree with them and put as many labels as they can.
Such as "conservative", "religios fanatic" or other to make them sound as bad as possible. Well, I'm neither...
What happened to the freedom of speech and repecting other people's oppinion insted of insulting?


Also... black swans have been observed to form lasting male-and-male relationships, a pair of main chinstrap penguins were observed to form a lasting relationship and raise an egg at the New York zoo (multiple occurances of this have apparently been observed)

Hell, just spend 5 minutes to do some research next time - I pulled this off memory and wikipedia.  I'm sorry, but if you really think that animal behaviourists can't tell a male from a female and rely on pulling together a conclusion from a single observation, then you're an idiot.

///// Behavioralist crap. I don't  have a tendecy to trust anything some so-called scientist said. They tend to counter eachoter all the tie anyway. (Carrot is the healtiest fruit! No, wait - it's spinach. now whan I think about it, it's a tomato!)
 did you know that in animal kingdom it is common for the alpha male to jump on the weaker one to demonstrate his superiority (effectivly saying: "you're my *****. I'm the boss!"). However, he only acts it like they're doing something. Like I said before - no penetration. So unless you have some 100% CLEAR proof, dont waste my time.
On the other note, even if there are gay animals, they are very rare, and that only proves that it's a anomaly.


Eh?  You basically said they were sick and defective humans just because you think so- if that's not hate-stroke-bigotry I don't know what is.


So If I say that someone with Alzheimers desease is sick and I want for a cure to be found I am a biggot? In that case I am.


Mah...my roommate sez that I should not waste my time in discussion like this. He thinks that most of the people on the internet are either extreemists or morons. Hmm...when you think about it, the same could very well apply to the humanity in general. Maby he wasn't far from the truth...
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
///Treating them as being less than human? When did I say that?


You said 'not normal'.  Therefore, not worthy of the consideration you'd give a 'normal' person.  Y'know, the right to have basic freedoms such as choice.  Or comparing them to genetically defective mutants with a superfluous 3rd arm.

Maybe i should have used 'treating them inhumanely'; that would be more appropriate with regards to previous statements.

Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
///Ahh...yes. This was so expected. The uber-liberal, no-backbone people have such a strong urge to attack anyone who doesn't agree with them and put as many labels as they can.
Such as "conservative", "religios fanatic" or other to make them sound as bad as possible. Well, I'm neither...
What happened to the freedom of speech and repecting other people's oppinion insted of insulting?


Hey, I'm sorry if I get pissed off, but if you can insult peoples integrity and opinion ala below, I don't see why I can't make similar broad generalisations.

You may notice I never used the words 'conservative' or 'religious fanatic', though - these are the connotations you made, not me.

All I referred to was preffering to be a person willing to think independently and be tolerant, rather than swallow and espouse everything I'm told without consideration of the facts.   Because your definition of 'normal' appears to be anyone who conforms to the narrow spectrum defined by your world-view & opinions.

Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
///// Behavioralist crap. I don't have a tendecy to trust anything some so-called scientist said. They tend to counter eachoter all the tie anyway. (Carrot is the healtiest fruit! No, wait - it's spinach. now whan I think about it, it's a tomato!)
did you know that in animal kingdom it is common for the alpha male to jump on the weaker one to demonstrate his superiority (effectivly saying: "you're my *****. I'm the boss!"). However, he only acts it like they're doing something. Like I said before - no penetration. So unless you have some 100% CLEAR proof, dont waste my time.
On the other note, even if there are gay animals, they are very rare, and that only proves that it's a anomaly.


Y'know, that's so dismissive of basic scientific research and process that I don't think I even need to counter.   I mean, your making a case by bad-mouthing multiple scientists who have had research published and subjected to peer scrutiny?  By that same context you could validate the flat-earth theory and decide gravity doesn't exists.  It's there, it exists, it's well documented - get over it.

 I wonder, would you be so quick to dismiss it if you agreed with it?  I doubt so.

Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan

So If I say that someone with Alzheimers desease is sick and I want for a cure to be found I am a biggot? In that case I am.


Altzheimers is a disease whose symptoms are the deterioration of brain tissue.  Homosexuality in now way fits into the definition of a disease - it does not impair the function of the body or bodily systems in any way.  

The only possible way you could even claim it to be is by placing the fuctions of the human body as defined within a social context.  By that context, you are just as diseased as any homosexual, simply because you are doubtless socially different.  By the same criteria, you could justify racism, sectarianism as being curative of 'disease' - the disease of being different.

Don't even try to claim you have the moral high ground here, because anyone with a modicum of sense and tolerance can see you're making a completely unsustainable statement.

Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan

Mah...my roommate sez that I should not waste my time in discussion like this. He thinks that most of the people on the internet are either extreemists or morons. Hmm...when you think about it, the same could very well apply to the humanity in general. Maby he wasn't far from the truth...


About extremism?  I think we can see it very clearly here.......however, perhaps you should consider that extremism is " any political theory favoring immoderate uncompromising policies".  I'm the one asking for tolerance, acceptance, compromise if you will.  Trying to denounce me as, what, some sort of anti-religious (if your reasoning is religion based.... because there's no scientific basis, and all else you could give is personal bias and prejudice) extremist is just pathetic, really.

  What next, you'll compare me to Hitler because I want a different social group to be treated as equals?  Not by you (because I realise that would be a futile hope), but by society as a whole.  I mean, people in the US south IIRC also used the Bible to justify racism & slavery, didn't they?  Couldn't the same thing be happening now with regards to sexuality?

EDIt; oh, and case you haven't noticed; in a lot of the religious threads we've had over time, I've always put out an opposing-stroke-moderating viewpoint towards Kazans despisal of religion.  I've made it very clear I have no objections to other people having religious beliefs - even though I am personally an aetheist -  so long as they don't try to force it on others or use it as an excuse to hurt others.  So calling me an extremist is really about as far from the truth as is possible.  I find it somewhat petty,  in all honesty.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2004, 07:12:59 am by 181 »

 

Offline Flipside

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Your room-mate. Ah......... I see...........

That's the lovely thing about having someone else supply your opinions for you :)

 

Offline aldo_14

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I probably shouldn't let myself get worked up by this sort of thing.  But I believe - passionately - in tolerance, equality,fairness  etc (all the 'good' parts of human nature), so I can't help it.

 

Offline Flipside

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It is listening to him trying to justify the kind of ignorance induced fear and intolerance that his country claims to be waging a war on.

Edit : As I tried to say earlier, judge people for who they are not how they are different from you. I might be Gay for all you know, but that doesn't mean I'm not a modder and texturer as well, but you would rather hate the Gay than see the Modder and Texturer.

That is a weakness in you, and one that can, and will, be exploited when you are older.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2004, 07:29:20 am by 394 »