[aldo_14]

Originally posted by ngtm1r


That's why I added the second part. The Rakshasa may have just figured it's hostile, since the Trinity was hostile, Gamma Drac was empty, and only one node out of Gamma Drac was fit for use of Terran ships: that to Vega.

Well, was the Trinity hostile?  I mean, it's entirely plausible that bosch told them to avoid and, um, 'hostiles'.

 I need to check the dialogue for that mission, though - specifically how much contact the Shivans had with the Trinity prior.  Or maybe the Shivans left it alive as bait.

Well, the cutscene never did make it into the game, and I admit I didn't consult my copy of the reference bible when constructing my theory, but it may have been just an attempt to emphasize the Shivan's superiority over us. Or it may just have been filler, intended to acquaint the player with the realities of life in the FS universe. Impossible to say, open to interpretation.

Yup.  I find it intriguing.

I don't deny the Shivans might have a lot to do with subspace, might even have been born/created there, but as for the Knossos, that's just good tactics. The GTVA tries to secure it too, after all.

True; I still think it's interesting the Shivans are literally swarming around the 3 locations with a Knossos.

Of course, here's another idea[/i]; what if all along the Shivans needed to supernova Capella - but they couldn't so long as the Knossos' were inactive (say the Sath can't travel through unstable nodes like the smaller ships).  Maybe that's how the Ancients provoked them or came to their attention, and maybe the Ancients' last act was to shutoff said node.  Possibly even trapping a section of the Shivan fleet that destroyed the Ancients in GTVA space....

Ehh...I'm not buying that one. First, because there's no evidence for the Riveria being such a place. Second, because after entering through the back door in Ross 128, the first places the Shivans hit were systems that were on the front line of the Terran-Vasudan War. Then they headed for Vasuda Prime, pasted that, and went for Earth.

True.  Albeit IIRC the Shivans came from everywhere -  Ikeya in particular I remember.  What we know about Rivera is just about sod all; they did test weapons and shielding there, and we know that the military finances subspace research, so it's possible they did it at Riviera.

That's true. BUT in FS1, you only see THREE Shivan destroyers (SD Lucifer, SD Eva, and the Demon that intercepted the GTD Bastion when it was en route to Delta Serpentis.) and only  hear about two before the fact (SD Lucifer and SD Eva).

 Er...yes?  To clarify, I meant the Ancients war with the Shivans.  I was really just pointing out that it was in all likelihood much, much vaster than the wars with the GTVA... and also it explains how a species advanced enough to build a Knossos would have lost to the fleet the GTVA overcame; it wasn't that fleet but a far larger one.

The Ancients, if they had been left alone, would have expanded again, killed more civilizations, and the Shivans would have had to come back eventually. There would not have been a lasting peace. The Ancients would not learn, could not learn, because they still had no reason to be peaceful towards anyone that they encountered: they had conquered everybody, then got their butts kicked by the Shivans.

Well, they had - taking the monologues alone, they realised they had 'sinned', and sought to evade further punishment by relocating to their home system.  Fear is a powerful motivation... had the Shivans wanted to merely contain and pacify the Ancients, it would have been easy for them... but they obliterated them mercilessly.

The Terran-Vasudan alliance is a different case. They have learned the value of peace with other cultures. They have learned tolerance from fighting the Shivans alongside each other. When the GTVA encounters another civilization aside from the Shivans, it is far more likely to extend the hand of friendship then to attack. They have several good reasons for this: among the foremost is that they can use all the allies they can get if the Shivans come back. Another is that every time there has been a major conflict, the Shivans have shown up and caused mass destruction.

I simply don't like the idea of Shivans being 'peacemakers.... I'm not sure why the Shivans waited 14 years to show up if that's all they're interested in.
[/B]

Well, bear in mind I'm just picking little holes & chucking ideas rather than espousing a coherent theory (I have one, but it's mine alone and relies on some...other stuff).

Anyways, comments in red.

[Grimloq]

first and foremost ,we have to remember this:

the name 'FREESPACE' was what scientists called subspace when they first discovered it. the title of the game is also FREESPACE. games are usually named after the focus of the game. ie halo is SET on halo, homeworld is about the QUEST for the homeworld, the outforce (an old RTS game) is about an 'outforce' (kinda like a big scout party), and FREESPACE must be about FREESPACE, or subspace. (pardon the bold, its just an attention-getter )

so, freespace is indeed about subspace. SOMETHING important happened, is happening, or did happen in subspace, which is what FS1&2 are chronicaling (sp?).

i think this:

the shivans have been watching us for quite some time. probably theyve observed us throughout our evolutioin (NOTE: this is NOT going to turn into a debate about creationism vs. evolutionism) and the shivans were appaled.
 they figured we were an inferior race, and that if we were allowed to spread, we would destroy the universe in some way. worse, we would destroy subspace, which (educated guessing here...) would ahnialate not only the universe but EVERYTHING (i know how weird that sounds, but you know what i mean what if theres more than 1 universe or something?) so they estimated our strength and tried to destroy our homeworld, which would REALLY screw us over, basically.
 then, whe it was destroyed, the lucifer would signal back to the main fleet (prollly at that time some sathani) and they would come in for the kill. but  we stopped them luckily (just barely...) and it cost us a lot. the shivans essentially won.
 then, they waited for a while, building soem more juggernoughts and God-knows what else (thats why i think that the Gigas isnt so far-fetched as most people think. however, the EA superjugg is out of line) for a second assault.
 this time, they destroyed what was the SECOND most populated place they could find.
 however, they probably thought that we were building a fleet of juggs as well, so they decided to cut us off for now and build up their fleet to totally decimate the terran and vasudan races once and for all! (can yo usee a campaign forming here? :devil: hmm..*cough*FS3*cough*?)

remember what was said about them how they will send something tougher each time? logically, the next ship will be somewhat unstoppable. the GTVA better get their act together, or die.


or, it could be somewhat less impressive, like the shivans are like moths and subspace nodes are like lamps but i dont like that theory


*sigh* all this talk of the shivan enigma is making me pine away for FS3...

[Hippo]

*blinks*

*has two words*



Anthropromorphic Fallacy!

[NGTM-1R]

You know, I'm going to have to take exception to that.

You assume it is a fallacy. Yet, on the other hand, is it? We got the way we are for some reason. Humans think the way they do because it provides some concrete biological advantage. Otherwise we would think differently, because differently would offer some concrete biological advantage.

We evolved into our current form because it was a good one, for crying out loud. To automatically assume that other species will be vastly different from us is a fallacy in and of itself.

And also, I would point out that the other races of Freespace are decidely anthropomorphic, so we have a good streak going here.

[Hippo]

All i mean, is that you can't assume anything... Not reactions, not motives, and certianly not thought proscesses...

[Grimloq]

i think the human body sucks >.< its a ok design, but its so fragile, and inefficient... bleh...

i wanna be either a shivan or a cyborg

[WeatherOp]

I think the Shivans are more of a experiment, I think they were created for war, using violent ways to conbine flesh and robotics. They then turned and destroyed whoever created them and started destroying whatever came that looked like it had the Tech to make war. That would explain how they could build so many ships and have such powerful weapons.

Just a thought.

[Grimloq]

old idea, but i still like it

[WeatherOp]

Yeah, basicly the same Idea of bad people creating robots for war and end up dead instead.  Stay away from robots mankind.

[willy_principal]

One thing is sure.........the Shivans have a MASSIVE FLEET...
then...why bothering sending scoutin parties and stuff when you can send an entire Battle Group with Hundreds of Sathanas...
...this might mean that they are fighting with a forth race...which is likely superior to the Shivans...
...Why opening a second front if you are fighting a total war with another civilization... ... ... May be the shivans are afraid that we get in contact with the Forth Civilization........
.............WANNA KNOW MORE???...wait until the HomeWorlds Campaign is ready and you'll see...

[Noise]

The Shivan Manifesto says it all.  It does agree that the Shivans we all know as being a weapon of war, constructed for nothing less than grinding their enemies into oblivion.  It also states why the Shivans have come and gone throughout history.  For those of you who haven't read it yet, do so.

[Antares]

Someone agrees with me?  Holy crap, are we logging this thread?

[NGTM-1R]

Actually, I agree with you on most of your points too. (Still iffy on the energy beings until somebody figures out how such a creature could work.)

I just whipped this other thing out in my spare time 'cuz I was bored.

[FireCrack]

While it's being discussed i'd like to point out a slight "half error" in the  shivan manifesto (half cause you said you only guessed it)

The end cutscene for FS1 shows that jump nodes need not be near the edges of the system, the sol-delta serpentis jump node lead right to an area nearby earth.

[NGTM-1R]

Also jump nodes can be clustered together, there's an FS1 mission with three nodes only a few kilometers (if that) apart.

[WeatherOp]

Would be cool is the Shivans were made by the Ancients. Then the Shivans killed them. Muhahahahaha.

[aldo_14]

I used to go with the 'war with other superrace' type explanation (as seen in Reci), but  I think it's a bit....dull, now.

[TrashMan]

Say, does anyone know is Shivans actually breathe (not oxigen, but anything at all)?

Yes, I know one animation showed them in vacuum, but that doesn't have to mean they don't breathe, they just might be able to hold their breat a looong time. For instance, dolphins breathe, yet can stay underwater for at least half an hour.

[Corsair]

I like what ngtm1r had to say...there's only one little thing. If the Shivans were looking to make peace, why'd they blow up Capella? If they didn't want the death to go on, why didn't they make Gamma Draconis go super nova? It would have had the same effects: cut off the GTVA from the nebula and display the awesome firepower of the Sathanas fleet.

[Carl]

i think they had a glass or plastic visor over their faces.