[Ghostavo]

Did I say officers? I said army!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler#Economics_and_culture

Hitler's policies emphasised the importance of family life: men were the breadwinners, women’s priorities being Church, Kitchen and Children.

About the inquisition...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

The Inquisition was an office of the Roman Catholic Church charged with suppressing heresy.

According to this you will say that certain popes weren't christian... interesting... no matter how hard you try to forget or ignore this, this will always be true, read his biography, his speechs, his actions in Nazy Germany and whatever you can find about him, he was christian. Denying this is like saying Kazan is a devoted catholic and that Lib is a firm atheist.

Also note, that Hitler wasn't catholic, he was christian protestant.

[Mongoose]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect

Well technically, it's a quote that anyone who's read Hamlet should know, but, err... *cough.* Whatever.

Yeah, I hoped people would assume that.

Originally posted by Kazan

mongoose the fact that you don't know the difference between nazism and fascism shows why you don't have any basis to be talking

"Help, help, I'm being repressed!"

[NGTM-1R]

Hitler was a masterful manipulator, and wrapping oneself in the Bible has always been an effective tactic. You cannot afford to take any of his actions at face value.

Yes, Ghostavo, I do believe that certain Popes were not Catholic. If you do not practice what your religion claims to be for, you are not truly of that religion. Surely that is a reasonable belief.

I said military too, in case you didn't notice. Wermacht. The Wermacht, for example, refused to adopt the Nazi salute (something also overturned in 1944). The highest rank a Nazi Party member could obtain before 1944 was Private First Class. They couldn't even become an NCO, for crying out loud. Before 1942, a Nazi Party member could not even JOIN the Wehrmacht. The regular military and the SS often clashed adminstraitively, and sometimes in the field as well. Regular Wehrmacht officers placed under the command of the SS were far more likely to disobey orders, and also far more likely to get away with it: the Wehrmacht looked after its own.

[Ghostavo]

Christian = anyone who believes Jesus is the messiah
Christianity is a group of several sects, each with their own views, just because a group doesn't agree with another one doesn't mean the second group is not christian.

Please don't think I am saying Hitler acted the way he did because he was christian, I am not, although I think it influenced him (Luther's anti-semitic stuff mainly, I suppose) like everything around him that could influence his personality.

[NGTM-1R]

Pretty much all Christianity condemns what happened during the inquistion, so the point stands. But since you chose to use a specifically Catholic example, I responded to as a Catholic example.

What ARE you trying to say, then? You seem to be trying to prove that Hitler was not anti-Christian, and taking the obvious tack that if he was Christian it would difficult for him to be anti-Christian.

[Ghostavo]

I am trying to say that Hitler was christian period. Simply that. What you said in a previous post about him being atheist is totally false as you can see in any complete biography about him.

[NGTM-1R]

He may have simply been trying to look superficially Christian, because that would engender loyalty from Germans, who are a predominantly Christian people.

On the other hand, in later life he rarely if ever went to church of any denomination, he indulged in decidely un-Christian practices both in person and for the government he created as a whole. And any biography will also support the belief he saw himself as the moral equivalent of the Second Coming. Like I said, he did not believe in God, because he believed in himself they way one might believe in God. He was the all-powerful and all-knowing one.

[Ghostavo]

For the n'th last time...

1- If a christian rarely goes to church, he does not stop being a christian, he just has a less active role as a christian, otherwise you would say all soldiers in times of war are not christians, etc...
2- The inquisition was also un-christian and it was practiced by christians. Even if they are ashamed of it it continues to be something that was "built" by christians. They sinned if you will... just because someone sins doesn't mean that they stop being christians... has anybody not sinned?
3- Even if that is true (about him seing himself as the second coming) doesn't it mearly reinforce the notion that he thought himself to be "son of god" (and therefore, christian).
4- I give up... if you haven't been convinced by now, you will never be convinced by me. Talk to your history teacher or anybody who has taken history in college or something.

[NGTM-1R]

I did say the "moral equivalent" did I not? I didn't mean he saw himself as the son of God, I mean he saw himself as being LIKE the son of God.

There is a point that comes when you stray too far from a set of values to truly claim they are your values anymore. Hitler was way, way the hell past that point. And he did make attempts to supress the church, which argues against what you're saying quite effectively.

[Kazan]

hitler was not an atheist - plain and simple

hey ghastavo - 4 doesn't cut it because im sure they can find one who will intentionally destort the truth to fit their worldview

[Ghostavo]

Of course he made attempts to supress the church, but it was the church institution in germany. He also made deals with the Vatican so...

[NGTM-1R]

He did? He must have broken them, then, since German troops eventually occupied the Vatican as well.

Making deals with the Vatican is something the People's Republic of China has done as well. They aren't Christian either.

Kazan: prove your point. Give evidence, or be ridiculed. So far you have not managed to refute any points I have made against you.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
To claim the inquistions were truly religious in nature is absurd. They were the equivalent of the SS, as the Catholic church tried and failed to maintain control. They claimed to be Catholic. That does not make them so.

Right. So you accept that its possible for someone to proclaim their christianity very loudly yet not be a true christian.

Apply that to your argument that America couldn't be becoming a facist nation because christianity would prevent it

See? What if the current american leaders aren't actually christians either but are mearly posing as such?

[NGTM-1R]

Then why is Kazan calling them "christofacists"?

More to the point, when did I make such an argument? I made reference to the birth of Christ as just that, a reference point.

[aldo_14]

Kazan relates the decisions made by, for lack of a better term, the neo-conservatives as being close to facism, and that these decisions are being (or claimed to be) justified by use of Christian scripture or doctrine.

Hence, facists using Christianity as a basis = Christofacists.

I don't find it a particularly useful or effective term myself, but I think that's the reasoning behind use of it.

[Kazan]

Originally posted by aldo_14
Hence, facists using Christianity as a basis = Christofacists.

especially when they're trying to make adherence to a certain sect of christianity's beliefs compulsatory

[Ghostavo]

ngtm1r, explain this...



What would a Hitler, a "non-christian", be doing in a church in 1932?

[Kazan]

he was pissing on the alter of course

[NGTM-1R]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
He may have simply been trying to look superficially Christian, because that would engender loyalty from Germans, who are a predominantly Christian people.

On the other hand, in later life he rarely if ever went to church of any denomination.

One visit to a church does not a Christian make you.

[Tiara]

The fact that you claim that Hitler wasn't a religious man in the form of Christianity while there is no evidence to support that, is quite astonishing.

Everything, from his henchman to the very foundation of his views on the Third Reich, show he was in fact a religious man.

You are working under the assumption that there are only a few kinds of Christianity in this world. That is where you are wrong. Religion can be molded, shaped and viewed from the most extreme angles. While he viewed catholicism as one of the larger threats, he wanted to create his own religion. But that religion still included God and the Bible and were at it's roots Christian. He wanted to Nazify Christian Protestantism.

The following passage from Mein Kampf clearifies it a bit;

As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people fulfilled their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether Protestant pastor or Catholic priest, both together and particularly at the first flare, there really existed in both camps but a single holy German Reich[/u], for whose existence and future each man turned to his own heaven.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The highlighted line is what I mean. He was trying to create a Holy Empire according to his own views on religion.

Also, if you read mein kampf (prefferably untranslated) you will notice the humongous amounts of references to God, many paraphrased biblical passages and many more Christian references.