[NGTM-1R]

And again I tell you: Hitler was a liar. He was manipulative. He was delusional.

Do not take his word for it.

[Ghostavo]

But you see he made that up and faked his whole life!! He cannot be trusted for he is Hitler!!! He killed millions he cannot possibly be christian!!

HERETIC!!!!!!!!




EDIT:

wow... how the hell did I guess his answer... hm...

[NGTM-1R]

*shakes head sadly*

Unlike you, I am capable of reasoned argument. The man was clearly crazy. Are you going to believe a pyschopath?

[Kazan]

sarcasm may not be "reasoned argument" but ghostavo's sarcasm is backed up with reasonable arguments as well


Like Tiara's thorough trouncing of you on the last page

just because they don't fit YOUR definition of christian doesn't mean they're not christian

[MatthewPapa]

I bet that pic was from a propaganda video. I dont know if we could call it conclusive evidence.

[Ford Prefect]

Actually the historical community has generally concluded that Hitler was not crazy, and quite frankly it doesn't surprise me.

People are very naive with regards to what normal, average people are capable of. Hitler was just a mediocre little man who failed at everything he tried in life, and when he discovered public speaking and propaganda, there was no stopping him.

[Ghostavo]

Capable of reasoned argument? You mean like Tiara, I, Kazan, and others have repeatedly shown you that Hitler was christian and you keep ignoring that because and I quote:

Hitler was a liar. He was manipulative. He was delusional.

Even though he went to church, he repeatedly said he was christian in speechs, books, conversations with friends, etc, etc, etc... He was photographed leaving the church, praying, etc, etc, etc... and you claim that is all false because you say so and the bible blah blah blah without providing a single thread of evidence?

That is capable of reasoned argument? That is called ignoring people. You haven't argued, you haven't even brought a single piece of evidence, all you've done is sit there at your computer saying that what we brought is false! Is that your idea of an argument?

[.::Tin Can::.]

Would it matter if he was christian anyway? Are all christian's Hitlers? Osama Bin Laden is Islamic. Does that mean all islamic people are terrorists?

[Ford Prefect]

Indeed.

People are assuming that categories we conceive mean anything at all. Human behavior cannot be organized according to creed, so that Person A will only do such-and-such if he is a Christian, or a socialist, or a whatever. Behavior comes first, names follow. Not the other way around.

[Tiara]

Ugh, just be glad you're not one of my students.

I still don't know why it is that with my degree in history and the plain facts laid out on the table you still try to rationalize your opinion* by unsupported self-generated opinions**.

*You have no facts to support it and thus it is nothing more then an opinion.
** the fact that you try to support your argument (which is really an opinion as staded above) with other opinions is outright stupid

I'm not saying that my degree makes me impervious to making mistakes and getting it wrong, but to disprove me at least put some actual facts, references or anything of substance on the table.

[Ghostavo]

.::Tin Can::., Ford Prefect

Please don't think I am saying Hitler acted the way he did because he was christian, I am not, although I think it influenced him (Luther's anti-semitic stuff mainly, I suppose) like everything around him that could influence his personality.

I am trying to say that Hitler was christian period. Simply that.

[Tiara]

Please don't think I am saying Hitler acted the way he did because he was christian, I am not, although I think it influenced him (Luther's anti-semitic stuff mainly, I suppose) like everything around him that could influence his personality.

Actually, it was Karl Lueger who influenced him. Karl Lueger was a member of the anti-Semitic Christian Social Party.

[Kazan]

just like im saying the right wing fundamentalists, even though some of their behaviors are inconsistent with christianity, are christian in their own minds and believe their morals, etc to be christian and they fit the most basic test to be "a christian" - they believe in "jesus christ, as our savior"

they are christrian even if you don't find them very Christian, they are also fascist and are using their religion as a power-basis hence that makes them christofascists

[Tiara]

I think people are mad at you because you forget to make the distinction between passive Christians and the christofascists. There's a huge difference between the two.

[Ford Prefect]

Yes, I saw that, but the argument still seems to be revolving around the notion that his religion was of some significance.

Whatever. This is a silly tangent. The question was whether or not the United States is capable of being subverted by authoritarianism, not whether mass murderers are religious, and I still can't get over how popular it is to assume that democracy has special immunity to such things.

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Whatever. This is a silly tangent. The question was whether or not the United States is capable of being subverted by authoritarianism, not whether mass murderers are religious, and I still can't get over how popular it is to assume that democracy has special immunity to such things.

While I don't believe the USA will simply be subverted without anyone ringing the big bell, I can see it happening in such a degree that it will have serious detrimental effects.

[NGTM-1R]

He was photographed praying? Produce the photograph. All you have is him leaving a church. A single visit to a church doesn't make you religious. For all you can tell from such a photo, he was meeting someone, or he found it a convenient place to hold a Nazi Party rally.

You have offered me evidence with faults, and I have pointed them out. That you persist in the use of this faulty evidence is you ignoring people.

Evidence? You want evidence? I gave you evidence to refute your belt buckle. I have plenty of other evidence too: it's called the man's actions. He supressed churches of all denominations. He sent Catholics to the concentration camps until the backlash threatened him. He locked up priests of all denominations. He had Vatican City occupied and the Pope placed under house arrest. He had churches in Russia burned. Millions died as a direct result of his policies, not merely Jews but people of nearly every religion on the face of the planet, and nearly every ethnicty. Are these the actions of a religous man? Under what religon? Worship of some god of death and control? Please note the use of all, as well: Hitler was an equal-opportunity discriminator.

And anything the man said or did could have been proganda. He didn't get as far as he did without attention to detail. (In fact, he had an amazing passion for detail; I can cite several anecdotes to that effect.)

[Ford Prefect]

ngtm1r, a good percentage of the world is religious. Are you saying that all those people in the human population are incapable of atrocity?

[NGTM-1R]

A nice try, Ford, but that's not what I said. And since the man in question is Christian, irrevelant. To alter the teachings of Christianity far enough to justify his actions is to render them unrecognizable as such.

[Ghostavo]

Him praying...

You gave me no evidence regarding the belt buckle, the belt was wore by soldiers at Hitler's desire! For someone who wanted to "destroy religion" he sure made nice religious uniforms. He didn't supress churches of all denominations, haven't you seen the wikipedia article I showed? One of the wife's concerns according to him WAS THE F******* CHURCH!!!!!

The fact that he sent christians to concentration camps means nothing. He sent germans, and austrians, does that mean that he wasn't one? Again I point the inquisition as an example.

Russian churches are ortodox (sp?) churchs and Hitler was not one...

Millions died as a direct result of his policies... interesting... the church in it's 2 thousands (a bit less) also killed millions... is that the action of a religious institution? You seem to think that anybody who is a criminal can't be automaticaly a religious person.

Also, by saying that he had an attention to detail, you would have to tell me that he knew that he would be chanceller since childbirth since he was christian all his life!!!!