Author Topic: From the front lines...  (Read 2944 times)

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Offline Corsair

  • Gull Wings Rule
  • 29
From the front lines...
Comes China and Russia, having their first joint excercises in a while.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041213/D86US5QO0.html

It says here that China plans to buy $2 billion in arms from Russia this year. Whee! Let's all militarize! Building up our armies is fun, and we always need to have superpowers facing each other down, especially when they're equipped with nukes! ;)

So...I guess I'm a bit disturbed. I don't really know what to make of it.
Wash: This landing's gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: *shrug* "Oh God, oh God, we're all gonna die"?
Mal: This is the captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and then... explode.

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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Do you ever get the feeling that we're all living in a game of Civilization?
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline Grey Wolf

Wonder what signifigance the recent Taiwanese elections will have...
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline Kosh

  • A year behind what's funny
  • 210
Quote
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Do you ever get the feeling that we're all living in a game of Civilization?



Duh.


Quote
So...I guess I'm a bit disturbed. I don't really know what to make of it.



China's military has come a long way from that peasent army they used in Korea, but it still isn't much of a match for the US.....yet.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

Brain I/O error
Replace and press any key

 

Offline Rictor

  • Murdered by Brazilian Psychopath
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Uhm, you do realize that China has over a billion people, right?

A billion people armed with butter knives could take down any current military. A billion is not a small number, its a big number.

 
Five billion people armed with butter knives could take down any current army in urban situations.

Any modern army that's serious about winning would just shell the area from long range.

 

Offline aldo_14

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If the US wanted to invade / take out China, they'd probably just flatten it with conventional airstrikes; IIRC the Chinese airforce is nowhere near the technological level of the US.

 Of course, try and do that and the Chinese would probably fire nukes (they have ICBM subs now too, I believe, so it'd be very hard to stop them from doing so), and we'd end up with doomsday.

 

Offline Zarax

  • 210
The US can't invade anything without serious popular suppot in the invaded country.
I think that Iraq proved it quite well.
The Best is Yet to Come

 

Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Zarax
The US can't invade anything without serious popular suppot in the invaded country.
I think that Iraq proved it quite well.


That depends on what they want to invade for.... i.e. there's no way in hell the US could hold a country bigger than, well, Iraq under occupation (and they're struggling badly as is), so they'd be as likely to turn the area into a car park before sending in troops to clear out the odd key area, and then retreat from the ruins.

 

Offline Zarax

  • 210
With a little difference: They cannot do that, we aren't in WWII anymore.
Oh, and another little thing...
If they do they can kiss the economy goodbye...
You cannot bomb one of your main commercial partners and get unpunished... ;)
The Best is Yet to Come

 

Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Zarax
With a little difference: They cannot do that, we aren't in WWII anymore.
Oh, and another little thing...
If they do they can kiss the economy goodbye...
You cannot bomb one of your main commercial partners and get unpunished... ;)


Well, yeah.  Buf if they did go to war, I think that's how they'd do it....

 

Offline Gank

  • 27
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
If the US wanted to invade / take out China, they'd probably just flatten it with conventional airstrikes; IIRC the Chinese airforce is nowhere near the technological level of the US.

200+ Su27/30s, coupled with Krypton supersonic asms. Numerically inferior but remember the US is going to have to launch off carriers unless they can find someone crazy enough to let them use their strips. Aeriel bombardment isnt all that effective anyways, tactically its next to useless unless theres a ground war going on, and strategically it doesnt always work, Vietnam for example. Against a country the size of China its doomed to failure.

 
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
Of course, try and do that and the Chinese would probably fire nukes (they have ICBM subs now too, I believe, so it'd be very hard to stop them from doing so), and we'd end up with doomsday.

The odds of that happening are incredibly slim, even if China is getting bombed to dust. The US simply cant take and hold the place, its impossible. China would most likely just take it on the chin, they can afford to.

 

Offline Janos

  • A *really* weird sheep
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Quote
Originally posted by Gank

200+ Su27/30s, coupled with Krypton supersonic asms. Numerically inferior but remember the US is going to have to launch off carriers unless they can find someone crazy enough to let them use their strips. Aeriel bombardment isnt all that effective anyways, tactically its next to useless unless theres a ground war going on, and strategically it doesnt always work, Vietnam for example. Against a country the size of China its doomed to failure.
[/b]

Yep, and those Suhois lack advanced AWACS, long-range weaponry support and everything else that makes the USAF so powerful. Yup. US forces have to either launch from carriers or Taiwan lol, but that mean preciously little, as it has little effect in everything. Actually, the carrier groups, while having fewer planes and stuff, are also mobile and tremendously well-armed and -protected.

Tactically aerial war is only useful in supporting the ground troops, and that's exactly where it's used. Strategically it's excellent and far exceeds other means, except LR missiles - US could lay waste to eastern China's military infrastructure in couple of weeks, but that would be quite useless, as there's no way to actually hold the ground.

 
Quote

The odds of that happening are incredibly slim, even if China is getting bombed to dust. The US simply cant take and hold the place, its impossible. China would most likely just take it on the chin, they can afford to.


US can't. Nobody can, unless Russia suddenly and mystically manages to become a superpower on par with the US, both economically and militarilly. There's too much land to hold. China has a long way to come, too, 20 years at last. And at that point US and other western NATO members are quite different from what they are today.
lol wtf

  

Offline aldo_14

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Well, bear in mind I'm talking about a total war - no capture of territory, no reconstruction, just to annihiliate the enemy so they can no longer fight.

In that event, I think all cards would be on the table.

 

Offline Corsair

  • Gull Wings Rule
  • 29
Quote
Originally posted by Janos
US can't. Nobody can, unless Russia suddenly and mystically manages to become a superpower on par with the US, both economically and militarilly. There's too much land to hold. China has a long way to come, too, 20 years at last. And at that point US and other western NATO members are quite different from what they are today.


Right, but the original point was that Russia and China are collaborating on military matters. I'm saying, look at the possibilities of a new alliance spanning about half the globe... not just a neofascist China in the future, but with Russian allies.
Wash: This landing's gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: *shrug* "Oh God, oh God, we're all gonna die"?
Mal: This is the captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and then... explode.

 

Offline Janos

  • A *really* weird sheep
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Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
Well, bear in mind I'm talking about a total war - no capture of territory, no reconstruction, just to annihiliate the enemy so they can no longer fight.

In that event, I think all cards would be on the table.


I money is on USA. Higher techs, better surveillance, huge industrial output if needed, goddamn Pacific Navy and carriers, strategic ability to project power, all the long-range weaponry they have. And the nuclear deterrent which makes China's deterrent practically useless.
lol wtf

 
Yes I believe that the Chinese navy wound be no match for the American Pacific fleet. This is a crucial factor. The USA's mobility would win the for itself. I also believe that if the draft were re-instated there would be pleanty of people to fight the war for America.  If America actually got around to it its industrial might would easily overwhelm china's.

If china hit the USA with nukes first I believe the USA would go all out (where they dont care much about enemy civillian casualties and world opinion etc) they would be far more effective that they were in Iraq . If its a matter of survival the USA would for sure win because China has no real way to invade the USA on their own soil (mayb japan though) and therefore couldnt land a knockout punch.

 

Offline Zarax

  • 210
Large scale nuclear attack == global knockout punch, therefore not viable for both parts.
Also: chinese strategic situation is not much different from Vietnam.
And there air superiority proved to be as effectibe as a fleas on dogs...
Final point:
You are vastly underestimating the chinese industrial capacity.
In 5 years of intensive production they can deploy effective sheer numerical superiority over anything except maybe India...
The Best is Yet to Come

 
Quote
Originally posted by Zarax
Also: chinese strategic situation is not much different from Vietnam.
And there air superiority proved to be as effectibe as a fleas on dogs...


Uhh...no.
If you dont think air superiority wasnt key in veitnam you are terribly mistaken. The helicopters, bombers, etc were basically all we had going for us against the north veitnamese's jungle warfare. The north veitnamese were terrified of our supreme mobility of troops and equipment. Such air superiority would be a key factor on a war of that scale. Imagine how many different kind of nukes or bombs you could drop from a couple of well escorted B-52's?

 Also satellite weapons would eventually come into play (for the USA), tipping the balance of the war into one side's favor.

And about the Chinese industrial capacity:
I believe it would be severely crippled because sanctions would most likely be imposed on China thus crippling there ability to import/export things. They would also lose one of their best markets....Japan and US!

 

Offline Knight Templar

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  • I'm a magic man, I've got magic hands.
I know we're all having fun playing CnC Generals out in our minds, but why is it that whenever it's mentioned that China is becomming a rising power in the world that they will somehow go to war with the U.S. ?
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