[Grey Wolf]

The Yen doesn't date back that far (134 years). For that matter, neither does the modern Drachma (173 years), the Mark (134 years), or even the Dollar (U.S.) (220 years).

[Bobboau]

the EU was built mostly out of ecconomic nesesity, the euro thing, think of it like this, the average European country is the size of the average US state (roughly speaking) think about how inconvenient it would be if every time you crossed the border to another state you had to convert the cash you had on hand to the local economy to a diferent exchange rate that changed dayly? you would soon  be thinking "we should all just agree on a common currency". also the current culture of most European nations is more or less the same, yes there are diferences, but overall when you look at the rest of the world the diferences within all of Europe, asside from some local traditions, is prety much the same, at the very least nobody is incompatable with anyone else (asside from maybe the language). and one last thing to consiter, power, as a loose colection of independent nations Europe has a lot less influence over the rest of the world, now I as an American, have no problem with there being one less rival, but think about it if you were over there HATED what we were doing and wanted to have some power over it woldn't you want to unite with your negbors? now I think the people who say "Europe needs to unit to fight the evil Americans" are idiots and probly being used, but it is a valid point to consiter. most of the current generation see's themselves more as 'citizens of the world' than there little corner of it.

[vyper]

We managed fine changing money before hand. We could manage fine now.

This is superstate preparation, nothing less.

[Freyr]

Originally posted by Mongoose
Well, maybe I'm a backwards, arrogant American who doesn't understand the cultural workings of Europe, but I have a question to those of you from countries that have joined the EU:  doesn't it bother you to give up part of your own national sovereignty to a larger unit?  Doesn't it harm some sense of nationalism to know that, to a certain extent, your country is being controlled by people elected from other countries?  (I'm not referring to any actual political control, just to the extent of the authority that the EU does have, of which I'm not really well-informed.)  Some of your nations have been around in some form for hundreds, even thousands of years.  Yet you would give up this tradition so easily and relinquish authority to a different body?  I guess I'm just not thinking in the same way.

I guess the thing that really gets me is the Euro.  To me, as an American, the American dollar is a symbol of our nation.  It has our national symbols, monuments, and great presidents/leaders on it.  More than that, however, in a certain stance, it stands for our country.  Take a look at Greece, for instance.  The drachma was in use for thousands of years, and yet they gave it up for the Euro.  How was this done so lightly?  At least to me, the drachma is a symbol of Greek culture, as is the yen for Japan and the pound for England.  Maybe that's just a different, American perspective; maybe it's wrong; I don't know.  Hearing that Kofi Annan supports a form of global currency, however, makes me even more distrustful of him.

What I do know, however, is that, while I'm alive, I don't ever want to see any global/hemispherical currency replace my dollars.  More importantly and vitally, I don't want to see any organization of any kind supercede its authority over that of the United States Constitution.  "Over my dead body" has come to my mind; it may seem strange, but that's honestly the way I feel.  I don't want any form of global government, and I don't want anything interfering with United States sovereignty, either in the next ten years or in the next one hundred.

I'm sorry to intrude on this thread, but I'd like to hear a different view of the matter from some of the European members, in order to get an idea in what way my opinions differ from those in other parts of the world.

Its nearly 1300 years for the pound by my understanding.

no, this is one of the  times where someone from the other side of the world is thinking in exactly the same way as a lot of people over here.

[Ghostavo]

I may be speaking only for myself here, but I have to say the currency is no more a symbol of a culture than say... $19.99 is the symbol for FreeSpace, or a similar case. It mearly represents an economic power, nothing more, so changing it to suit the needs of a country (or in this case many) doesn't bother. Of course I may be biased as I didn't want to have to buy stuff with a currency 200 times lower than the Euro.

[Liberator]

Originally posted by vyper
This is superstate preparation, nothing less.

Absolutely, which is why you guys need to get out of it.

I actually heard that one of the high mucky-mucks behind the EU that it was nothing but a front to provide the US with an economic opponent so we wouldn't run around doing stuff, like begin the wholesale disoloution of the horrific dictatorships in the Middle East.

[vyper]

Well, not so much but it did serve in that function for a while.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a unified trading group that shares common goals. However, I also like the idea of my country steering it's own course.

[Genryu]

Originally posted by Liberator


Absolutely, which is why you guys need to get out of it.

I actually heard that one of the high mucky-mucks behind the EU that it was nothing but a front to provide the US with an economic opponent so we wouldn't run around doing stuff, like begin the wholesale disoloution of the horrific dictatorships in the Middle East.

I've only one thing to say. The EU doesn't support dictatorship anymore than the US does. Make what you want of this, but I'm tired of trying to convince people that the world is not in black and white, like Lib still apparently believe.

[mitac]

A lot of people do not know that the EU is rooted on the simple idea of ensuring peace in Europe by putting heavy industry and nuclear power under a central control. The national states failed in this matter, as the late 19th/early 20th century showed. The economic aim was added later on. I believe it's important to keep that in mind.

Thinking the EU was established just to oppose the US is short-minded. Regardless of the peacekeeping aspect, it aims for strengthening its member states' economies. The US had absolutely nothing to do with that in the beginning, though that has changed over the years. It's not that bad, either - world economy shouldn't rely on just one state.

As Genyru said, there's no black/white.

Concerning the loss of national identity - well, I'm not missing anything. The particular reason is that any national identity has been purged from my country after losing two world wars, which is the reason why I feel rather "european" than "german". So, I sometimes have trouble understanding the "fears" of, say, people from Britain.

[Clave]

You have to understand that the UK or Britain is not a country, it's a kind of 'internal we hate each other' collective.  The Scot hate the English, the English hate the Welsh, the Irish love everyone but want to fight them all as well.  It's a mish-mash of opinions and prejudices going back many centuries.  

Now, take a look at history - I'm not talking WW1 or 2, but further back:  

England had wars in France, Scotland, Wales, Germany, Ireland, Spain, Canada, USA, India, Egypt, Suez, South Africa, Kenya, China etc. etc. Now, of course all those days are long gone, but there is a spark of xenophobia still lurking in the hearts of some people, and that will be hard to eradicate...

Example: I don't hate the French, but everybody in the office does, so what can you do?

[Ghostavo]

Almost every country in Europe had wars with almost every country in Europe also and you don't see them getting at each other's guts... frequently at least.

[Clave]

Yeah, but they are over the other side of the sea, so don't count...

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by vyper
Did it ever occur to anyone that diversity and individual nations are actually a good thing because competition & ambition drives change and progess?

and did it ever occur to you that the EU isn't removing the diversity and individuality of the member-states?

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by Mongoose
 doesn't it bother you to give up part of your own national sovereignty to a larger unit?

why should it?

Every country in the EU joined voluntarily.

[vyper]

European leaders scream the rafters down about integration - UK politicians have spent decades assuring the situation was the opposite.

[mitac]

Meh. On a legal level, it's true. Giving away competencies results in a certain loss of sovereignty. Thus the current situation is often called a system of "split souvereignty". Though, it's debatable if its a loss in its original meaning or a reversible shift.

European public law is a very interesting subject.

[vyper]

Not when your mate tries explaining the CAP to you at 2am when you clearly already understand it but just don't see how if at all Britain benefits from it.

[mitac]

CAP? Help me out, what do you mean?

[pyro-manic]

I'm not really bothered about "national identity" as such. I consider myself British, Welsh and European all at the same time. I'm proud to be British, and proud to be Welsh, and to some extent proud to be European, as I want to be part of all these cultures. I haven't got a huge attachment to Sterling, although it's good to know you have one of the world's strongest currencies (but then the Euro is pretty good as well, if not quite up to the pound's level yet).

That said, I don't like the EU in it's current form, as it's riddled with corruption, and nothing much gets done except an obscene amount of money gets pissed away with little to show for it. I would be in favour of greater integration as long as it improved the quality of life in the UK, and had no detrimental effects on people anywhere else.

[vyper]

CAP = Common Agricultural Policy - essentially the EU buying surplus crops off farmers at the end of a season.

This led on to a discussion about the minimum required size of a carrot.