Author Topic: Back to space!  (Read 4165 times)

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Offline vyper

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[q]Lest your immortal programming burn in the lake of fire that is Mac OS, forever![/q]

I may go to hell, but I might finally be in with the cool crew! :eek2:
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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Based on our current knowledge of space travel, I would guess that interstellar travel would most closely resemble something out of Arthur C. Clarke's The Songs of Distant Earth; gigantic ships hurtle from one star to another for millennia at a time before reaching their destinations.

An interstellar war would be one of truly gargantuan proportions.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline Grey Wolf

Quote
Originally posted by Ace


You shall repent your ways and worship of the false gods, and embrace the true love of Robot Jesus(tm). Lest your immortal programming burn in the lake of fire that is Mac OS, forever!

Inquisition, here we go...

Inquisition, what a show...


Remember that the pain is only temporary, and necessary to purify your source code, and that Robot Jesus(tm) loves you!

This statement does not compute.
Abort, Retry, Fail?
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
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Quote
Originally posted by Blitzerland
They say, if we continue living as we do now, we'll run out of resources by 2050.

Even if it seems far-fetched, space-travel is neccessary...


Interestingly, "they" said the same thing something like 30 years ago.  "They" said the water would all but undrinkable, the air unbreathable, and the land untenable.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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Quote
Interestingly, "they" said the same thing something like 30 years ago. "They" said the water would all but undrinkable, the air unbreathable, and the land untenable.

The numbers people attach to it may be rather arbitrary, and even absurd, but our environment is not invincible, and it's difficult to refute that we're on very thin ice.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline Grug

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Hehe, vogons... :drevil:

Interesting topic indeed.

 

Offline Ghost

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Quote
Originally posted by vyper
Cause a 14-year war with Vasudans would be so cool instead? :wtf:


Yes. They're easier to kill. Even on Insane. On insane... I can kill Vasudans in the beginning of FS1(or FS Port.) On insane... I can't kill Shivans. It's completely ****ed up. Even with shields. Ever tried the first mission with Shivans in it in FS2? Christ, that's hard as hell. I can't make it 10 seconds....
Wh00t!? Vinyl? Is it like an I-pod 2 or something?

[/sarcasm]

-KappaWing

The Greatest Game in Existance

 

Offline Ace

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Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf

This statement does not compute.
Abort, Retry, Fail?


This piece of divinely-inspired promotional art will compute, meatbag:


---

Anyway "they" in the 70s said that by 2010-2030 we'd be running out of fossil fuels. The new projections are showing 2050 or so. There are a lot of variables involved, the early projections were assuming that developing nations would be industrializing at a faster rate, which they are now. (*cough* "outsourcing" *cough*)
Ace
Self-plagiarism is style.
-Alfred Hitchcock

 

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
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yeah, but it's always just-far-enough-in-the-future-that-I'll-probly-be-dead-before-I-have-to-explain-why-I-was-wrong
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline Kosh

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Space is our future. Plain and simple. It would be nice if the human race would stop being so shortsighted for the next 100 years or so to get us to the stars........
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

Brain I/O error
Replace and press any key

 

Offline Bobboau

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I want my damned orbital elivator!
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
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My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
yeah, but it's always just-far-enough-in-the-future-that-I'll-probly-be-dead-before-I-have-to-explain-why-I-was-wrong


:lol:

Quoted for truth.

 

Offline Trivial Psychic

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Going back closer to the original topic (since I missed out), the shuttle was originally planned to be replaced about now, by a craft called the Venture Star.  That would be a full sized shuttle based off a scaled prototype called the X-33.  The Venture Star would have been a single-state-to-orbit design, that carried no external fuel tanks, no external boosters, and used a linear aerospike engine for maximum thrust plume efficientcy during the entire range of atmosphereic densities that the craft would have to opperate in, from sea level to orbit (vacume).  It was to be a collection of technological innovations to be a cutting edge spacecraft when opperational.  Unfortunatlely, the low-weight graphite fuel tanks being devellopped, would not seal properly and were more brittle than anticipated.  The design was changed to accomidate more conventional alluminium fuel tanks, but this had more weight.  The design was then altered further to include more fuel (to compensate for the increase in weight), but it required moving the cargo section into an external pod above the main body, increasing drag.  That was the last design change I remember before it got canned.  This was late in the Clinton administration IIRC.  It was basically going quite a bit over-budget, and was taking somewhat longer than planned.  Combine all of these factors into a single assessment, and what you have is a craft which is deemed too ambitious to be attainable.  It should be said at this point, that a fully reusable single-stage-to-orbit spacecraft such as the proposed Venture Star, is the Holy Grail of earth-to-space spaceflight.

Following the canellation of the X-33 and Venture Star programs, NASA began SLI, or Space Launch Initiative.  Basically, it was a program to select a design that was less radical and amitious as the Venture Star, but more efficient than the current Shuttle.  It would basically be a fully or semi-reusable two-stage-to-orbit design, with a reduced heavy cargo cappacity.  Around this time, Bush had just entered office and internal reviews of NASA revealed considerable cost overruns across the board.  Its been said that Clinton was a bit fan of NASA, and got into the habit of delaying the release of some of its financial information until certain points of the year, so that it would end up getting more funding (I can't remember the specifics though).  After the review, certain planned segments of the ISS were deleted.  A larger propulsion module, a larger crew module, and a specially designed emergency escape vehicle.  The latter was designed to fit 7 people, which could only be accommodated by the crew module, so those kinda go hand-in-hand.

During 2002 (IIRC), NASA was once again told to hit the breaks on new shuttle developpment, as the SLI program was haulted for further review.  It was replaced with another program (that appears to have no name that I know of) that basically wants to take a commercial heavy booster used for lofting heavy sattalites and attempt to make it safe enough for human use.  Then, a much smaller craft called a "Space Plane" would be placed atop it, with perhaps 2/3 to 1/2 the shuttle's crew cappacity and no where near its cargo cappacity.  Further "refinements" on this concept basically made it into a high-tech reuseable verson of an Apollo era capsule, with no clear mention of any kind of glide cappability, so it may be back to ocean recoveries.  I consider this proposed type of spaceflight, an unacceptable step backwards for NASA.

Then in 2003, Columbia broke up during rentry.  While tragic, it forced NASA to take certain actions that crippled it and zapped its momentum.  Firstly, it forced a grounding of the remaining shuttles until the cause of the accident was found, understood, and a method to prevent it is devised and implimented.  All of these are important, understandable, and completely called for.  This also put a stop to ISS construction, and basically left them in a holding pattern, trying to pare back their opperations so that they use the least number of resources until such a time as the shuttles are cleared for flight and construction resumes.  This should happen starting next month.  This basically took all of NASA's develloppment resources, including that used to devellop a replacement.  Both NASA and the Russion space program are in the middle of a race with time, that NASA seems unable or unwilling to win.  There is a deal with the Russians about how long whey are expected to provide Soyuz capsules to the station, both to ferry crews and to have one on hand to act as emergency escape vehicle.  This runs out in 2008, at which time (under the original agreement) NASA would have its emergency crew return vehicle and replacement shuttle fleet opperational.  Now, the shuttles are due for retirement in 2010, but its looking like they won't have anything close to coming on-line until about 2015.  The craft that NASA is proposing as its Shuttle replacements, could serve as emergency return vehicles, as the Soyuz craft to today, but what is to fill the gap between 2008 and whenever this space go-cart is to enter service?  Right now, NASA is at the mercy of people like Bush, who are alot of talk and no action.  Basically, Bush's policies are stringing people along until they realize that there is nothing waiting to take over, by which time he'll be either out of office after his 2nd term is up, or at the end of his term where it doesn't matter to him anyway... he's had his fun. [/end anti-Bush rant].

There may be a glimmer of hope, but it all depends on if NASA can get off its assets after RTF (return to flight) for the Shuttle and knucle down to actually selecting, desiging, building, and implimenting the shuttle replacement.  They need to be serious about it.  It needs to be on the front burner rather than on the back burner set to simmer.  The Russians too have indicated they are planning to design a new orbiter, though still rocket and capsule configuration.  This likely the result of Chineese success with a more advanced copy-cat design of the Soyuz, prompting an Asian space race or sorts.  Unfortinately, it is my opinion that if NASA hasn't even selected a replacement concept by the time the Shuttle is retired, or once again suspends the design program for another review, they should stop kidding themselves, the American people, and their Russian partners that they have any real plans (when I say "real" I mean plans that they fully expect is within their cappabilities to meet in the time alloted), to contine a manned presence in space.  It they can't support and maintain the space station when the shuttles are retired, they've got no business being in manned spaceflight and step aside and give the corporations the center stage in space.

As you can guess, the space program (manned, robitic, remote-sensing, and even in terms of physics) is an interest of mine, of which I am quite passionate about.  Unfortinately, as a Canadian, I realy don't have any say in how the American goverment and space program conducts its affairs, but with no such program here in Canada, I have to live viariously though NASA and other foreign space programs for my fix.  These are my observations and conclusions, which have found their way into this editorial of sorts.

Later!
The Trivial Psychic Strikes Again!

 

Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
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NASA == beauracracy

beauracacy == bad for any kind of real innovation since beauracacy tends to maintenance of status quo.

I personally feel that the Astronautics portion of NASA should be separated and made it own area.  With one of the prime duties of the head of the thing being the continual vigilance that the it doesn't become a beauacracy.

Of course, that will never happen, and such an agency would be crippled by group-think in months.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Martinus

  • Aka Maeglamor
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[color=66ff00]01000001011011010110010101101110 (convert to ascii for great justice).

Anyhow, go read a copy of Arthur C. Clarke's 'Prelude to space', it was years ahead of its time and described a far more practical, reusable space vehicle than the rather poorly designed one still used by NASA.
[/color]

 

Offline Ace

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NASA should be dealing with manned and robotic missions in deep space as well as dealing with prizes as incentives for privatized LEO missions.

Pretty much NASA should be focusing everything into space telescopes at the L-Points, probes to planets, and a large scale manned exploration program divided into stepping stones. The first being a new single-staged orbiter, if necessary this could be tied to the private company prizes so that the best design there is the one used by NASA. The second being a true space ship for missions in Earth-Moon space which uses the ISS as its base of operations. The third would then be expanding on this ship design for a Mars mission, then a Jovian mission, a Saturnian one, etc. That way NASA has a 50 year plan for exploration.

Launching satellites, joy-rides, and basic maintenance of the ISS could then be provided by private industry which has the carrots of NASA prizes to extend their influence a little further each year. (new altitude records, time in orbit, payload, etc.)

At the same time, a space elevator research program being done along side NASA's deep space mission and private company prizes would be a smart, and cost efficient thing to do.

NASA no longer being involved in pure areonautics, or geology research, handing those over to their proper departments of the government, and other slack cutting would also help immensely.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2005, 02:21:42 am by 72 »
Ace
Self-plagiarism is style.
-Alfred Hitchcock

 
Don´t mean to alarm anyone, but the inspections found a crack in the foam cover of the big central fuel tank. NASA said it was not  serious enough to prevent launch, but somehow i don´t trust their judgement. They had all the time in the world to check the damage and save those people, but they judged it as "a minor issue". It would be ironic if this shuttle suffered a similar end to its brother.
If people remember, the shuttle suffered catastrophic failure after being hit by a piece of foam, after launch. And now they find a crack in the same foam and still they allow the launch to proceed as usual?
Ok, but don´t say i didn´t told you so...
:wtf:
No Freespace 3 ?!? Oh, bugger...

 

Offline StratComm

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Quote
Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
Don´t mean to alarm anyone, but the inspections found a crack in the foam cover of the big central fuel tank. NASA said it was not  serious enough to prevent launch, but somehow i don´t trust their judgement. They had all the time in the world to check the damage and save those people, but they judged it as "a minor issue". It would be ironic if this shuttle suffered a similar end to its brother.
If people remember, the shuttle suffered catastrophic failure after being hit by a piece of foam, after launch. And now they find a crack in the same foam and still they allow the launch to proceed as usual?
Ok, but don´t say i didn´t told you so...
:wtf:


And at the same time, it seems that all too much concern may be getting placed on something that isn't necessarily a legitimate problem.  I know it's popular to not trust NASA right now, but I don't think that's the danger.  Letting a minute imperfection in the insulation of the fuel tank that isn't in a region prone to sudden temperature changes (or even in a region that could actually fall on the orbiter - for all we know it may be on the bottom of the tank) stop the resumption of manned space flights by NASA is a far more serious concern, as the Columbia accident has already set the space program back years.  The fact that they found the crack and delayed rollout to make sure it wasn't a problem gives me confidence that people better qualified than any of us looked at it and assessed the risks.  Space travel is not and never will be a risk-free enterprise, so don't treat it as such.

Oh, and quite frankly there was no way to save the Columbia crew, even if NASA had known prior to re-entry that the heat shield was damaged.  They didn't sit on their asses about it, because there was nothing that could have been done even if they spent thousands of man-hours checking it out.  It takes too long to prep another orbiter to pick them up, and it's not like you can just change course whenever it suits to go link up with a lifeboat like the ISS.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2005, 02:39:07 am by 570 »
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 
Quote
Originally posted by StratComm

 Letting a minute imperfection in the insulation of the fuel tank that isn't in a region prone to sudden temperature changes (or even in a region that could actually fall on the orbiter - for all we know it may be on the bottom of the tank) stop the resumption of manned space flights by NASA is a far more serious concern, as the Columbia accident has already set the space program back years.  The fact that they found the crack and delayed rollout to make sure it wasn't a problem gives me confidence that people better qualified than any of us looked at it and assessed the risks.  Space travel is not and never will be a risk-free enterprise, so don't treat it as such.


They didn´t delayed the rollout. Infact, they are rolling out a month  and a half before the launch window, wich starts mid/late month of May. If i were making sure the shuttle is in tip top condition, i wouldn´t roll it out so early and leave it exposed to the elements, when i can leave it inside the hangar and test every system all over again. And since we don´t know where the crack was found, we don´t know how serious it can be. It could be unimportant, yes. But it can be very serious aswell.
But that´s not the point. The point is that an accident happened, caused by things that were not previouslly considered to be mission dangerous. Even if the crack was found on the least dangerous spot of the tank,  caution dictates that it must be dealt with, and fixed. Just because they "think" it´s not dangerous, doesn´t mean that it is not. They didn´t think foam was capable of punching a hole in the shuttle before either, and look at what happened.
You say the crash has set the program back years. Well, just think what a second crash, by the same reasons, would do to the space program! Are you willing to take that chance?
No Freespace 3 ?!? Oh, bugger...

  

Offline StratComm

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They did delay it, though only by a matter of hours.  It's being rolled out now because - per requirements to resumeing shuttle launches set by NASA - another orbiter has to be preped for launch in case something does go wrong, and they need the hanger space.  Never mind that it's actually common practice - always has been - to bring the orbiters out early, so that final checks can be made on the pad from which the shuttle will launch rather than in a building before a long and somewhat tedious rollout.  The very fact that they're running over the entire foam layer with a fine-toothed comb and any potential problems are at least checked is worlds better than what was happening before.  The statement says it's in a "noncryogenic" area of the tank, meaning what caused the foam to break off before - rapid changes in temperature as the rocket took off - aren't an issue on whatever part of the tank this crack was found.  So it can't be the same thing that destroyed Columbia.  Quite frankly, releasing a statement saying "we found a crack" to the media was and will continue to be a stupid policy, precisely because of the knee-jerk reactions made by people who don't understand what the problem was in the first place.

Am I willing to see NASA take a (albeit small) risk in order to resume manned space exploration?  Absolutely.  The space shuttle is still one of the most reliable spacecraft that has ever been built, having carried out over a hundred launches with only two losses.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2005, 03:10:44 am by 570 »
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM