[EtherShock]

Originally posted by Nuke

the point of a democracy is to make the people the government. the people should be able to trust eachother. the swiss are a good example of a functional social democracy. not entirely sure how there system works, but there neutrality and anti-war policy is certainly a good thing.

Actually, Switzerland is a confederacy, the world's only. That explains their neutrality. They can never agree on anything as a whole. Each individual state of a confederacy is on its own for the most part. Government has very little power compared to the states. The US was originally going to be a confederacy, but that didn't work out.

[Grug]

Interesting read.

Interesting in particular the comments about the tours with W.Bush and Wu. How Bush was always about terror, where-as Wu was about local economics, environment, and other things as well as Terror.
Guess China isn't as gullible as the usual people W.B. preaches too.

IMO, he doesn't come across as a very intelligent individual. Which pushes the fact further that the U.S. President is more of a public puppet than a man of power...

[icespeed]

by the way, as a native-born chinese, i'd like to point out that the asian work ethic _does_ exist and it _does_ make a huge influence on our lifestyle and culture, but it does _not_ preclude happiness, since happiness is largely dependent on what you think it is.

i've grown up with competition and industriousness, and the only reason i'm unhappy with that mindset is because i live in australia where (no offence) the white kids never did any work cos their parents didn't care enough to force them to, so i had something to compare my own lifestyle with. when you're living in cities full of other people for whom promotion and getting a better quality of life is pretty much everything, you define what makes you happy differently- i know people who quite happily worked their fingers to the bone during their prime years for a big retirement package, even though they may not be able to enjoy the money in the same way.

another reason for the hard working thing is the family- you work hard to make sure your family has enough support when you're gone, especially if you're the husband of the household.

okay, i'll stop lecturing on asian fiscal culture now.

[Ace]

Originally posted by Unknown Target
Communism in it's purest form has never, and will never exist, at least for a government. In a small community, it might work, but the simple fact is that it has no checks or balances, and in a large system, it's impossible to function efficiently.

Communism in the sense of hunter-gatherer societies (which is what Marx based his theories on, but incorrectly tried to apply the same ideas to agricultural and industrial societies) did exist and worked. Effectively each family unit would gather their own food, or did other tasks for the village as a whole if unable to do that. Balanced reciprocity was the norm. (unlike negative reciprocity which is the basis for capitalism)

Such a system could be returned to with a sort of "techno-hunter gatherer" where the infrastructure to produce or gather energy and food is so available and prevalent that it is a non-issue. The sort of utopias seen in scifi such as Star Trek is close to this.

Centralized planning schemes imposed on societies is a sure-fire way to make communal living fail. The one thing close to successful centralized planning of this nature has been religion, look at the ultra-orthodox kibuttzes. Oddly enough, Marx didn't like the idea of engineering religions to fit with the ideals of communism as it would have given a strong backing to it.

Anyway, Marx was wrong on so many levels but communal living isn't bogus. It's just not feasible right now.

[Kosh]

That so called "asian work ethic" does indeed exist in asia. I do not think you realize just how hard it is to get work there, simply because there are A LOT of people after the exact same job. Are there lazy people? Of course, but most are quite the opposite.

But that work ethic tends to get lost with the first generation of families who come here. I know several asian-american students at my university who have at least been here since a very young age. They are even more lazy than I am (and I admittedly am pretty lazy).

China's development has been concentrated in the eastern parts (the side most people live on), so of course there are going to be lots of peasants. It is only now starting the develop the western parts. It isn't called a "developing country" for nothing Aldo. But in terms of economics, it does change very, very fast in the cities.

And in modern China, you CAN open up your own private businesses. There are probably more hoops to jump through (for permits, etc), but you can still do it.

If you want to buy an appliance (like a refrigerator) in the US, there are only a few major brans to choose from. But if you want to buy an appliance in China there are at least a dozen (local) brands. I haven't actually been to China yet, but I heard of that in a forum a couple of weeks ago from someone who is there.

The chinese political system is still very much communist. The country is essentially ruled by a small council called the "Politburo". But I suppose that communism without the command economic system is really an Oligarchy.

[Nuke]

Originally posted by Shrike
And what are you going to replace it with?  Communism?

im honestly not sure an improved successor to free enterprise exists. i do know that when free enterprise was invisioned, noone could have imagined how far it would go. noone thought that a buisness could become bigger than a government. the appropriate checks and balences were not implemented to keep companies from gaining to much power, especially by immoral or otherwise unwise means. credit for example, while it helps you get a car or a house has forced everyone into debt and probibly is a big contributor to the national deficit. we live a high lifestyle but refuse to pay for it. advertising is another buisness that has gone out of control, spam for example. excessive use of advertising is probibly directly responsible for the overuse of credit. another big issue is the fact that we delegate most of our primary and secondary economic sectors to other countries (china being one). weve become a country of salesmen. i dont think its fair to give the rest of the world our dirty laundry.

if china were to go full capitalist it would create a labor vacume. especially if they go as far as we have. i havent a clue what this will do to the rest of the world, its one of those wait and see things. we should find a better balence between capitalisim and communisim, we lean to far to an extreme.

Originally posted by EtherShock

Actually, Switzerland is a confederacy, the world's only. That explains their neutrality. They can never agree on anything as a whole. Each individual state of a confederacy is on its own for the most part. Government has very little power compared to the states. The US was originally going to be a confederacy, but that didn't work out.

i musta been thinking about some other country. i was under the impression that social democracy was a stable and effietient system. my bad

[EtherShock]

Originally posted by icespeed
by the way, as a native-born chinese, i'd like to point out that the asian work ethic _does_ exist and it _does_ make a huge influence on our lifestyle and culture, but it does _not_ preclude happiness, since happiness is largely dependent on what you think it is.

i've grown up with competition and industriousness, and the only reason i'm unhappy with that mindset is because i live in australia where (no offence) the white kids never did any work cos their parents didn't care enough to force them to, so i had something to compare my own lifestyle with. when you're living in cities full of other people for whom promotion and getting a better quality of life is pretty much everything, you define what makes you happy differently- i know people who quite happily worked their fingers to the bone during their prime years for a big retirement package, even though they may not be able to enjoy the money in the same way.

another reason for the hard working thing is the family- you work hard to make sure your family has enough support when you're gone, especially if you're the husband of the household.

okay, i'll stop lecturing on asian fiscal culture now.

I stand corrected. As 1/2 ABC, I don't like stereotypes. I feel they promote ignorance. They sometimes can get to me, and this particular one did. Don't get me started on other Asian stereotypes. Besides, with society today, you can't tell what's real and what is merely fabricated. Only a native born could've confimred this as truth however, so now I know. *Hangs head in shame*

Originally posted by Grug
Interesting read.

Interesting in particular the comments about the tours with W.Bush and Wu. How Bush was always about terror, where-as Wu was about local economics, environment, and other things as well as Terror.
Guess China isn't as gullible as the usual people W.B. preaches too.

Now that is a generalization. We are not all stupid idiots that take "King George's" words as gospel. We just unfortunately seem to be the minority. I hate what he's done. I resent that remark.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by EtherShock

Now that is a generalization. We are not all stupid idiots that take "King George's" words as gospel. We just unfortunately seem to be the minority. I hate what he's done. I resent that remark.

To be fair, I don't think you're included in that; chimp-boy Bush usually only preaches to the converted, after all.......

[Nuke]

shave your bush!

[achtung]

Apparently the HLP seems to be strongly liberal, eh?  Or strongly against Bush.  Or both.  And don't take this post wrong it is in no way an insult nor does it express my opinions.

[EtherShock]

I don't like that kind of bush either.

Well, we could have everyone take the politics test to find out where they stand. The questions on those are always horribly worded though.

Oh, I guess you're right Aldo. Sorry, I got a little carried away there, it happens. We're just humans.

[vyper]

[q]Well, we could have everyone take the politics test to find out where they stand.[/q]

Suggest that again, and I'll have to cut off your typing fingers for the greater good.

[EtherShock]

I type by means of telekinesis.

[Grug]

Originally posted by icespeed
by the way, as a native-born chinese, i'd like to point out that the asian work ethic _does_ exist and it _does_ make a huge influence on our lifestyle and culture, but it does _not_ preclude happiness, since happiness is largely dependent on what you think it is.

i've grown up with competition and industriousness, and the only reason i'm unhappy with that mindset is because i live in australia where (no offence) the white kids never did any work cos their parents didn't care enough to force them to, so i had something to compare my own lifestyle with. when you're living in cities full of other people for whom promotion and getting a better quality of life is pretty much everything, you define what makes you happy differently- i know people who quite happily worked their fingers to the bone during their prime years for a big retirement package, even though they may not be able to enjoy the money in the same way.

another reason for the hard working thing is the family- you work hard to make sure your family has enough support when you're gone, especially if you're the husband of the household.

okay, i'll stop lecturing on asian fiscal culture now.

I was one to grow up on the side that wasn't pressured to study very much etc. After coming through the educational system (and am about to go back into it) I got a good understanding of myself and the system.

I can look back and say that I honestly wish my folks were harder on me and made me concentrate on study. I virtually got no orders to do Homework etc. Luckily I hung out with smart friends, and partly through peer pressure and some friendly competition I made myself study and work harder.

Looking back I wish I'd had the pressure much earlier. I realized the sensible thing to do a little to late, and wasn't really as much effort as I could have put towards it. I walked away from highschool with an OP of 8, which is not bad at all. But I fully believe I could of achieved an OP1 had I learnt to concentrate on my work much earlier.

But I still enjoyed the freedom I did have. If an equilabrium could be found between the two, that would be perfect paranting. Some day, I hope to accomplish that. (In the distant, distant future that is )

Originally posted by EtherShock
Now that is a generalization. We are not all stupid idiots that take "King George's" words as gospel. We just unfortunately seem to be the minority. I hate what he's done. I resent that remark.

I'm sorry mate. I was quite tired while typing that so my grammer was out a bit and I didn't really get across what I meant properly.

I meant that the people who usually listen to and believe most if not all of what Bush says appear less conscious of all the facts. I'm gathering from the fact that George is still in Presidency that the majority of voting american's agree for the most part in what he has to say.

I know that not all American's think one way. I recall how an American comedian touring Australia was saying how the majority of the public are so misinformed. How he reads news articles online and from non-american writers to get all pieces of the story.

Also, whenever a political item comes from america, there always seems to be a focus on Terror, a fine example being the China article. Even the way the article was written the writer IMO slightly came across as "American's should be afraid of China". The government always seems to be instilling fear in the people, something that China obviously did not buy.

So sorry if I came across as stereo-typing the american people, it was not my intent.

Though I have to admit, I honestly cannot recall one instance where George Bush appeared / acted intelligent.

[Setekh]

I'm not sure how I feel about China being labelled a "new" power. I suppose modern China is a pretty new fixture on the global scene, but man... before the modern era, China was powerful beyond imagination for eons before that. Pity about the Cultural Revolution.

[Grey Wolf]

China went through a fairly long low period. It can basically be traced to when China became isolationist, and it lasted until the Cold War or so. Since then, it's been recovering. Sort of awaking a sleeping dragon...

[krisvek]

i dont worship bush, but i certainly dont pretend to have even the foggiest idea of what goes on in the white house every day.  he's the president...it's not an easy job...people need to realise that it's just as sheepish and "in" to criticize someone as it is to listen and follow blindly....
people want gas prices to be lowered...people want us to stoip killin them iraqis, but they also dont want us to get attacked again...damn bush for not getting our asses to mars, but damn him more for ignoring our education system while he takes a minute to consider nasa...c'mon people, it's a lose-lose situation...come up with a list of all the "jobs" that the president is supposed to do...it's rediculous...in all reality, it's IMPOSSIBLE...not just for bush, but for any one man....that's why the government is bigger than just him

the president is just the scapegoat and figurehead for the rest of government;  if you honestly think youre involved with politics, then you should be keeping track of every single senator and representative that votes contrary to what you think

but most of all, if you disagree with something, dont just b--geez-i'm-itch-y about it and complaign...come up with a better idea!  run for office!  complaining and doing nothing helps no one
for example....testing the coding work, etc., done here....if you just say "OMG it cra5hed!!11! h3IIPPP!1!!!!!1" or "this mod sucks", it's useless....point out exactly where the problems are, explain the circumstances, etc...or ideally, fix it yourself!  basically, strive to be an elite haxor coder like bob or whoever, except in real-life (tm)

[Grug]

History depicts that new nations of power will always rise and fall, each successor more powerfull than the last. I don't think there's much that America can do about it, I don't know why they feel so threatened. As long as a nation endures, keeps its culture and lives peacefully, what more could you want?

Slightly OT: They say if a WW3 were ever to occur, the world would be run from Australia in the aftermath.
There's also the saying of Einstein, 'I don't know what WW3 will be fought with but WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones'.

I personally think that give Australia a century or two and we could become the next major power.

[EtherShock]

During the Schiavo fiasco, it was very disturbing to see how far Congress went in order to attempt to circumvent the law, kind of makes you wonder exactly how separate church and state are. I feel sorry for whoever becomes the government's pawn in those kind of situations. What we need is a true democracy, but there's too many holes in the potential methods for that. In an ideal world, it might work however.

Originally posted by Setekh
I'm not sure how I feel about China being labelled a "new" power. I suppose modern China is a pretty new fixture on the global scene, but man... before the modern era, China was powerful beyond imagination for eons before that. Pity about the Cultural Revolution.

I once read somewhere that China was as "developed" as medieval Europe during the middle ages. After all, they invented gunpowder, the compass, and many other things. Then they fell "behind" because of strict rules or something. I don't remember. They were constantly invaded however, seems like everyone liked to pick on China, right up to the communist revolution.

No worries Grug, I just got a little stirred up. I can't even listen to the president speak because he's such a horrible public speaker, but that's enough Bush bashing for one thread.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by Setekh
I'm not sure how I feel about China being labelled a "new" power. I suppose modern China is a pretty new fixture on the global scene, but man... before the modern era, China was powerful beyond imagination for eons before that. Pity about the Cultural Revolution.

Yeah, it's fairer to say that China has just had a few bad centuries, and now they're back.