Poll

Who suffered more from the Shivans ?

It was the Vasudans
28 (44.4%)
It was the Terrans
14 (22.2%)
Me
21 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 62

Voting closed: May 19, 2005, 01:18:04 pm

Author Topic: Who suffered more ?  (Read 12122 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by Raa
Show me where there's a Vasudan installation in any system, and I will give you a fish.


That's why I said they were semi-mythical. It's fairly obvious that the vasudans almost certainly have them but yet we never ever see one in either game.

Quote
Originally posted by Raa
Point 2; Radio waves from a nearby system could have reached Earth and back several times in the years after the Lucifer. Sol had survived for millenia before humans made it to space, it could survive more after being isolated once more.


It could survive but it being cut off could easily have sparked a war that resulted in it not doing so.
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Offline Boomer

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Point 1; You cannot Terraform glass. Not to mention Vasuda Prime is probably so radioactive, it'd kill anything attempting to survive on the surface.


Plus, the surface wasn't glassed.  Remember the FS2 Intro cutscene?  The planet with all the dead Terran and Vasudan Marines?  That was Vasuda, not Deneb.  Their was no ground action in Deneb.

Plus, "technology", that's the operative term here.  Wow, we can go faster than light, but we can't build something that can deal with radioactivity?  Especially after OUR history with nuclear weapons?  Wow, the Vasudans were right, we ARE an arrogant, stupid and uncooperative race.
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Offline Taristin

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But there's no evidence that it did, nor that it didn't. So it's immaterial. You cannot base suffering on speculation.
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma


I don't buy that.

 Adhara is definately Terran as the Adhara Coalition was one of the regional blocs. Epsilon Pegasi appears to be Terran too as does Polaris (I doubt the NTF could have succeeding in starting their rebellion in a Vasudan held systems, not to mention that the Terran Freedom Shipyards were based there). Regulus is also definately Terran as  it too was one of the regional blocs (The Regulus Syndicate).
 Vega also must have a sizable terran population too as there are terran fleets based there, the (Terran-made) meson bomb was developed there.

All in all it seems pretty likely to me that Capella was Terran. The fact that the installation we did see was an Arcadia rather than one of the semi-mythical Vasudan installations also tends to point in that direction.


Well, firstly the population of Polaris & E.P IMO have little to do with Capellas initial colonisation if they were colonised after the GTVa was formed.  (I'd guess in that event a large Terran refugee population from Sol - or otherwise cut off from homes there - would make them particularly amenable to the NTF rebellion).

The first mission of FS2 (proper) takes place in Deneb; the presence of the 13th Vasudan battlegroup, plus the need to escort Vasudan refugees, IMO points to this system being Vasudan; as does the description of Bosch's war being to get to sites within Vasudan systems.

Deneb is, of course, the system next to Vega.  It's also next to Vasuda, which to me would hint that it would be heavily populated (along with Sirius, Antares, and Alpha Centauri); because the Vasudans got into space early in their history, and to me this would make it likely they'd have colonized their surrounding systems.

In FS1, IIRc there's a mention of a battle in Vega during the TV war.  There's also mention of Vasudan forces massing in Vega to counter-attack the Shivans (later decimated by a HoL attack), and also mention that Antares was being held by the GTA (which to me might indicate that the TV war thrust by the GTA was mainly in that area, perhaps because Vega had been fortified by Vasudan colonisation).

(of course, FS1 also mentions an Antares-Vega node; in which case the battle of Vega must have led to a Terran defeat, regardless of the initial holder of the system; proximity to Vasuda again makes me think it's more likely the Vasudans would hold the system).

As Vega is the only system which connects to Capella without having to also go via Vasuda, this makes me think that if the Vasudans controlled Vega, they would control Capella.  And I believe they did, so would have colonized Capella first.

The other thing is that IMO if the Capella and Vega are Terran, then the Vasudans would by consequence have very few systems insofar as the known ones go;if they held Antares outwards, then it'd be more even.  Except that FS1 describes the Antares system as being the site of Thresher, and initmates that Beta Cygnic & Ribos are held by the GTA (the shield tech is transferred from an Arcadia station in the latter to the former).

Of course, the screwy nature of the FS1 nodemap kind of raises questions over the legitimacy of any info drawn from them (and you'll notice all the 'mights', 'maybes', 'ifs' and soforth), but I don;t think it's contradictory to suggest Capella was at least originally Vasudan.  Odds are, IMO, it was probably colonised by both, rendering this arguement meaningless :D

Inicidentally, Capella isn't mentioned in FS1.  Which makes it an interesting issue as to why Volition chose that star, and that name....  I'm guessing it wasn't because it was a binary, as they didn't seem to notice that in the missions or cutscenes....

Mythologically, the best I've found (in a cursory 10-second wikipedia search) is that in Hindu mythology Capella is known as the heart of Brahma; the Hindu creator god, one of 3 which includes Vishnu and (yes, you guessed it) Shiva.  

the wikipedia entry reads;
[q]Brahma is the Hindu creator god, and one of the Trimurti, the others being Vishnu and Shiva. He is the husband of Sarasvati. However, being the Creator, all of his "sons" are "manas-putras", or mind-sons, indicating their birth from Brahma's mind and not from his body.

Brahma only occasionally interferes in the affairs of the gods, and even more rarely in mortal affairs. He did force Soma to give Tara back to her husband, Brihaspati. He is considered the father of Dharma and Atri. Brahma lives in Brahmapura, a city located on Mt. Meru.

Brahma is an agent of Brahman, the Supreme Being or Absolute of Hinduism.

Brahma is traditionally depicted with four heads and four faces and four arms. Each head recites one of the four Vedas. The hands hold a water-pot used in creating life, a string of rosary beads used to keep track of the Universe's time, the text of the Vedas, and a lotus flower.

The acquiring of Brahma's heads makes for an interesting legend. When Brahma was creating the universe, he made a female deity known as Shatarupa (one with a hundred beautiful forms). Brahma was immediately infatuated. Shatarupa moved in various directions to avoid the gaze of Brahma. But wherever she went, Brahma developed a head. Thus, Brahma developed five heads, one on each side and one above the others. In order to control Brahma, Shiva cut off the top head. Also, Shiva felt that Shatarupa was Brahma's daughter, being created by him. Therefore, Shiva determined, it was wrong for Brahma to become obsessed with her. He directed that there be no proper worship in India for the "unholy" Brahma. Thus, only Vishnu and Shiva continue to be worshipped, while Brahma is almost totally ignored. Ever since the incident, Brahma has been reciting the four Vedas in his attempt at repentance.

Another legend of the lack of worship of Brahma is as follows: Once, both Vishnu and Brahma approached Siva and requested to find his beginning and end. Vishnu was appointed the end, and Brahma the beginning. Each took their journey, and neither could find their appointed destination. Vishnu, satisfied, came up to Siva and bowed down to him as a swarupa of Brahman. Brahma did not give up so easily. As he was going up, he saw a kaitha flower, dear to Siva. His ego forced him to ask the flower to bear false witness of Brahma's finding Siva's beginning. When Brahma told his tale, Siva, the all-knowing, was angered by the former's ego. Siva thus cursed him that no being in the three worlds will worship him.

There is another legend which relates Brahma's not being worshipped to a curse by the great sage Brahmarishi Bhrigu. Once a great fire-sacrifice (yajna) was being organised on Earth with Bhrigu being the high priest. It was decided that the greatest among all Gods would be made the presiding deity. Bhrigu then set off to find the greatest among the Trinity. When he went to Brahma, he was so immersed in the music played by Saraswati that he could hardly hear Bhrigu's calls. The enraged Bhrigu then cursed Brahma that no person on Earth would ever invoke him or worship him again.

Brahma gyan is a rarely word used in the Hindu religion. It means knowledge of the supreme or knowledge of the creator God. A person who has this type of knowledge can be considered a highly enlightened person. He may see God in every object he sees, he can talk to God. Brahma gyan can be found in books like Gita, Vedas etc. Brahma gyan is considered as supreme knowledge in Hindu religion
.[/q]

(NB: 'Siva' is another form of 'Shiva')

EDIT; is that where you got the Starborn idea from?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2005, 06:28:05 pm by 181 »

 

Offline Goober5000

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Quote
Originally posted by Boomer
Plus, the surface wasn't glassed.
It was bombarded by the Lucifer for 13 hours straight, rendering most of the landmass uninhabitable.  It may not have been radioactive, but it was almost certainly turned to glass or another similar chemical form.
Quote
Remember the FS2 Intro cutscene?  The planet with all the dead Terran and Vasudan Marines?  That was Vasuda, not Deneb.
It was Deneb.  It says so at the beginning of the intro.
Quote
Their was no ground action in Deneb.
First, it's spelled "there".  Second, there was ground action in Deneb in FS2, so there certainly could have been ground action in FS1.
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
Deneb is, of course, the system next to Capella.
No it isn't.  Check the nodemap - you have to go through Vega.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Whoops.  I meant Deneb was next to Vega :o

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Quote
Originally posted by Raa

Point 1; You cannot Terraform glass. Not to mention Vasuda Prime is probably so radioactive, it'd kill anything attempting to survive on the surface.


Why would it be radioactive?

The Lucifer's main guns are not nuclear weapons, and there is nothing in existing canon on which to base supposition that they generate radioactivity under any circumstances.

Vasuda Prime recovered after the war; notation in the techroom regarding Vasuda Prime orbital shipyards producing the Bakha bomber; also notation in Intel brief on the Vasudans that the Emperor resides in the Imperial Palace on Vasuda Prime. Whether or not you believe it was terraformed is immaterial. It was restored to at least partial habitiblity, which implies some level of terraforming capablity.
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Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
Deneb is, of course, the system next to Vega.  It's also next to Vasuda,


No it's not. If you look at the map to get to Deneb you either go Vasuda>>Antares>>Beta Aquilae>>Vega>>Deneb or Vasuda>>Alpha Centauri>>Sirius>>Deneb.

Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
which to me would hint that it would be heavily populated (along with Sirius, Antares, and Alpha Centauri); because the Vasudans got into space early in their history, and to me this would make it likely they'd have colonized their surrounding systems.


Considering that the Vasudans failed to find Sol which is 4 jumps away (and probably didn't settle Delta Serpentis either which is 3 jumps away), I think we can dispence with the assumption that the Vasudans were hugely expansionist as soon as they left Vasuda. It could be that they were simply happy with the first few systems they found.

Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
(of course, FS1 also mentions an Antares-Vega node; in which case the battle of Vega must have led to a Terran defeat, regardless of the initial holder of the system; proximity to Vasuda again makes me think it's more likely the Vasudans would hold the system).


What proximity to Vasuda? Vega is 3 jumps from both Sol and Vasuda. Both routes go through Beta Aquilae (which leads me to believe that Terrans must have held that system).

In fact if the Terrans didn't hold at least parts of Antares too it seems hard to believe that they managed to hold onto Ribos and Ikeya since the only other way into the system is via a plot hole.


Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
As Vega is the only system which connects to Capella without having to also go via Vasuda, this makes me think that if the Vasudans controlled Vega, they would control Capella.  And I believe they did, so would have colonized Capella first.


I agree with you there. I simply dispute that the Vasudans controlled Vega.

Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
The other thing is that IMO if the Capella and Vega are Terran, then the Vasudans would by consequence have very few systems insofar as the known ones go;if they held Antares outwards, then it'd be more even.  Except that FS1 describes the Antares system as being the site of Thresher, and initmates that Beta Cygnic & Ribos are held by the GTA (the shield tech is transferred from an Arcadia station in the latter to the former).


Which tends to point towards my theory of Antares being a contested system. At the start of FS2 we know that Deneb, Alpha Centauri and Epsilon Pegasi are all contested systems so it seems quite possible that a system can stay contested for long periods of time. The fact that the war had turned into a war of attrition also seems to agree with that (With no contested systems both sides would have simply fortified the jump nodes and the war would have become a cold war instead.

Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
Of course, the screwy nature of the FS1 nodemap kind of raises questions over the legitimacy of any info drawn from them (and you'll notice all the 'mights', 'maybes', 'ifs' and soforth), but I don;t think it's contradictory to suggest Capella was at least originally Vasudan.  Odds are, IMO, it was probably colonised by both, rendering this arguement meaningless :D


I agree that the FS1 node map makes the discussion almost silly. That's obvious right from the FS1 intro where the Vasudans must have some how taken a skirmishing force straight through Delta Serpentis (surely the second most powerful Terran system) in order to reach Ross 128

Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
EDIT; is that where you got the Starborn idea from?


You'll have to ask Geezer about that one. The Starborn were already invented when I came on board :D
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Offline aldo_14

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From the brief;

Most escaping transport ships were destroyed. All major Vasudan cities were leveled, and most of the landmass was rendered uninhabitable. All of our attacks launched from the nearby installations were defeated.


So no need for any for of regeneration, really, although you'd expect an attempt at it regardless..

 

Offline Fragrag

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Quote
Originally posted by Boomer

The planet with all the dead Terran and Vasudan Marines?  That was Vasuda, not Deneb.  Their was no ground action in Deneb.


How can that be Vasuda? There was also no ground action on Vasuda I think, also, how did those bodys get there in the first place? I thought Shivans didn't do ground battles.
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Fragrag


How can that be Vasuda? There was also no ground action on Vasuda I think, also, how did those bodys get there in the first place? I thought Shivans didn't do ground battles.


The bodies IMO are suppossed to be from crashed ships and whatnot (and just sheer artistic value).  I think the cutscene caption, the transition to the wrecked herc, and whatnot, makes it pretty obvious the planet is in Deneb.

 
The Vasudans.  They lost a planet.  Nuff said.  :(
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Offline Fragrag

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We lost a planet to, no, I mean literally, we don't know where the heck it is
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Offline Black Wolf

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Quote
Originally posted by Fragrag
We lost a planet to, no, I mean literally, we don't know where the heck it is


What? I'm fairly sure earth is still orbiting Sol in 2367. In fact, even if it wasn;t, there are very few forces in the universe that could knock earth out of its orbit, and none (to my knowledge) that could knock it entirely out of the solar system within 32 years. So I'm fairly sure it's safe to say that Earth is in Sol. Thus, it is not lost.
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Offline Taristin

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Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r


Why would it be radioactive?

The Lucifer's main guns are not nuclear weapons, and there is nothing in existing canon on which to base supposition that they generate radioactivity under any circumstances.


Just as there is no evidence to prove that it wasn't.

Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r


Vasuda Prime recovered after the war; notation in the techroom regarding Vasuda Prime orbital shipyards producing the Bakha bomber;


There's your answer. Orbital.

Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r
also notation in Intel brief on the Vasudans that the Emperor resides in the Imperial Palace on Vasuda Prime. Whether or not you believe it was terraformed is immaterial. It was restored to at least partial habitiblity, which implies some level of terraforming capablity. [/B]

:wtf:
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Offline StratComm

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Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r
The Lucifer's main guns are not nuclear weapons, and there is nothing in existing canon on which to base supposition that they generate radioactivity under any circumstances.


That's not true, though it's not the type of radiation you're refering to.  Shivan weapons in general leave residual Mesonic particles in detectably high concentrations, and the concentration of particles from the Lucifer's guns is astronomically greater than that of strike craft-grade arms (FS Reference Bible).  Therefore they produce some form of Mesonic radiation during firing.  However, the better question is what effect do these particles have on living tissue (since that's the core concern for habitability) and FS canon doesn't say.
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Offline Goober5000

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
No it's not. If you look at the map to get to Deneb you either go Vasuda>>Antares>>Beta Aquilae>>Vega>>Deneb or Vasuda>>Alpha Centauri>>Sirius>>Deneb.
What nodemap are you looking at?  The official one links Deneb to both Vasuda and Vega.

I think there's enough evidence that Vega could have been a contested system during FS1.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Quote
Originally posted by Raa

Just as there is no evidence to prove that it wasn't.


Quote
Originally posted by Raa

But there's no evidence that it did, nor that it didn't. So it's immaterial. You cannot base suffering on speculation.


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Offline FireCrack

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From what i know theres no reason at all to belive mesons could be harmfull.
actualy, mabye not.
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Offline Taristin

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Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r




I leave you hoist by your own petard.


I knew you'd do that, but I am not basing suffering on it. ;)

Either way, I'm not actually sure what was stated on the beams of the lucifer, if anything.
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