[Taristin]

Originally posted by Swamp_Thing

Vehicle rammings             9    26
Shootings                        9    20

Notice the huge discrepance in number of shootings. In 2004 (before the minutemen) , you had 9 incidents. In 2005, in a few months alone, you have over 200% more. Makes you wonder, doesn´t it?

What's your point? Vehicle rammings went up by the same amount. Are you saying we should take away the border patrol vehicles as well?

[Swamp_Thing]

Originally posted by Bobboau
why are you, and it seems only you, so incredably pissed about this?

Because i´ve suffered first hand what a group of vigilantes can do.

[Bobboau]

ah, that would be a valid reason I supose.

[Swamp_Thing]

You know, never mind that i was once beaten up by vigilantes, that was not the reason why i posted, nor the reason why i´m so pissed. Actually, i wasn´t pissed at all, untill i saw everybody here sidding with them. What got me pissed, was to see that you have no idea who you are sidding with...

Take a little trip at their website. And note especially the groups with whom they side with. To number a few:

Patriot Art
MoveOff Network
The Rant
National Federation of Republican Assemblies
Patriot Territory.

...amongst others.

http://www.minutemanhq.com/hq/partners.php

Take a close look at those sites.
We are not talking of a group of concerned citizens, here. We are talking extreme right wing nuts, white supremacists, neo-cons, religious fanatics, all the people you guys denounced on this very forum for countless times.  And now you side with them?
I´m disapointed with you...

[redmenace]

If they are vigilantes that is Swamp Thing, I would share your concern. If this got to that point I am sure public opinion would turn against them and moron politicians would react.  And if they ever killed any one I would hope and pray to god that they would be convicted. But honestly, I have no problem with immigration from mexico. I wish, and many other wish that they would just use the proper channels. That is why I actually liked Bush's Guest worker program he put forth in the 2000 election. Honestly, the US needs these immigrants. They do, in all fairness, take jobs that most people don't want, but have to be done.

If I discounted or refused the help of the ACLU when they sued the dept of social services in Philly in regaurds to children that were not being placed for adoption as they ought to in circumstances, simply because they side with things that I don't like IE socialism, would I be right?

[DeepSpace9er]

Heres the solution: Build a wall.. a BIG wall... with a 50ft ditch on the mexican border maybe even filled with water or something.... barbed wire, land mines, automated machine guns, 24/7 UAV coverage, Satellite converage, Redoubts, Electrified cages around the wall... etc. Turn the border into a fortress. Then make a doorway where legals can get in and out.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
Lets look at some figures, shall we?

Acording to the US border patrol:
The first number is for 2004, the second number is for the first 5?months of 2005:

Rock throwing                 77   95
Physical assaults             21   20
Vehicle rammings             9    26
Shootings                        9    20
Other assaults                 2    2
Total:                            118   163

Notice the huge discrepance in number of shootings. In 2004 (before the minutemen) , you had 9 incidents. In 2005, in a few months alone, you have over 200% more. Makes you wonder, doesn´t it?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7997408/

Now let´s look at how effective they are:

What is known is that volunteers are unwittingly setting off motion detector sensors along the border.  These sensors, hidden along major pathways, send alarms back to a Border Patrol command center.  Each time a sensor goes off, agents are dispatched to investigate.

Agents responding to those false alarms are taken away from their routine patrols, Border Patrol Supervisory Agent Jose Maheda told the Associated Press.  “It’s taken away from our normal operations,” he said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7409293/page/3/

So, not only their presence is spurring more violence, they are actually hurting the US Border patrol, by setting off false alarms...

Two things here:

1) It's important to know how to read statistics.  If there's increased contact between illegal immigrants and border patrols (as there would be if they got reported more often) then obviously there'd also be a proportionate increase in violence.  I'd like to have a look at the percentage of incidents compared to the number of contacts between illegals and border patrols.

2) The Minutemen are being extraordinarily careful in the way they're doing this.  They're conducting checks on their members.  They're getting permission before heading out to the borders.  They're staying out of the way of border patrols.  They're not confronting the illegals personally.  They want to make it very clear that they're trying to help.  Unfortunately, certain groups of people who don't want them to succeed have been tailing them, trying to catch them in a screwup; or when that doesn't work, trying to provoke an outright confrontation.  In doing so, they are the ones setting off the motion detectors.  The Minutemen are careful enough to find out about the motion detectors beforehand.

I sympathize with your hostility toward vigilantes, Swamp_Thing, and I too am angry at those who completely disregard morality and legality in favor of their own corrupt version of "law".  I stand by you 100% on that.  But you have to know who your enemy is.  These people are not them.

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
Heres the solution: Build a wall.. a BIG wall... with a 50ft ditch on the mexican border maybe even filled with water or something.... barbed wire, land mines, automated machine guns, 24/7 UAV coverage, Satellite converage, Redoubts, Electrified cages around the wall... etc. Turn the border into a fortress. Then make a doorway where legals can get in and out.

That's what should be done. But unfortunately the political establishment is not making it a high priority.

It's rather ironic.  They're all up in arms about preventing terrorists from entering the country via airports, but the weakest link in the chain, by far, is the unsecured border with Mexico.

[Bobboau]

@DeepSpace9er: and pay for it with.... eh... magic, yeass.. magic... ledn2Ag.......

a fence would be good I guess, something like what the Isrealis are building.

anyway,

@Swamp_Thing: maybe were sideing with them because, on this one issue, we agree. we might not agree with there motivation, but we do agree there is a problem and we don't think there is anything wrong with there solution as it is being currently implemented.seriusly, step back, look at the situation, all they are doing is sitting out in the desert and calling the cops (border patrole) when they see someone breaking into there nation illigaly. just because you don't like these people (conservitive Texans) doesn't mean what they are doing is wrong.

[Bobboau]

Originally posted by Goober5000
It's rather ironic.  They're all up in arms about preventing terrorists from entering the country via airports, but the weakest link in the chain, by far, is the unsecured border with Mexico.

but the thing is as far as we can tell they aren't going across the border yet, our air port security is still so shity that Abdelkarim Hussein Mohamed Al-Nasser could still basicly buy a airline ticket from Tehran to D.C. and no one even blinks. why would they even bother getting in here illigaly when the legal methods are actualy easier for them. by the time anyone figures out there here they've already martyred themselves.

[Kosh]

You know, that same logic is used to suggest that letting soldier back into society is a bad idea. The odds of someone who has been trained in the use, maintenance, and culture of firearms is one whole hell of a lot less likely to "get carried away" than the average yahoo who passes a background check and thinks he's hot stuff cause he can buy a pistol, that person is a lot more dangerous.

You have a point, but here is where it falls apart: Soldiers are held to a certain level of professionalism (at least in the US). The militias are not. Who holds the militias accountable? Ultimatly no one. I can almost garentee this lack of accountability will lead to trouble sooner or later.

The point is that they might be benevolent now, but what about 2 or 3 years from now?

[Bobboau]

then they get arrested

[Swamp_Thing]

Originally posted by Goober5000
Unfortunately, certain groups of people who don't want them to succeed have been tailing them, trying to catch them in a screwup; or when that doesn't work, trying to provoke an outright confrontation.  In doing so, they are the ones setting off the motion detectors.  The Minutemen are careful enough to find out about the motion detectors beforehand.

How can you possibly know that, unless you are a border guard or a minuteman yourself? The fact is, the border patrol are saying this, not i. The info about the sensors being triped by minutemen came from the US Border patrol themselfs. Not from me, and not from "certain grups of people".
Seems to me they are not as carefull as you think they are.

And how can you say they are just sitting there and calling the cops, and not confronting the illegals, when the numbers show especifically a rise in numbers of those confrontations? What changed between 2004 and 2005? Surelly not the number of border guards. Their numbers remain the same.  Their tactics and security equipments remain the same. So, something else is causing this surge in confrontations. As i see it, it can only be one of two things:
Either the number of illegals has triplicated, (and i agree the number of people has risen, but not anywhere near that high) or the vigilantes are causing it.
It´s simple mathmatics: you multiply the number of people and weapons in the area, and the result is more violence.
If you think the presence of a few armed civilians is going to act as deterrement, you have a thing coming. These people risk their lives trying to cross the border. They starve, they die of thirst, they board sardine-can packed trucks in a blazing heat, they get into sinking boats. They do everything, and then some, just to get across. You think a bunch of guys sitting in a beach chair with binoculars are going to deter them from trying to get across?

I understand where you are comming from, you are angry that so many illegals are getting your jobs, that crime gets worst, and all that. Those are legitime concerns. But this is not the way. Build a wall, hire more guards, buy more equipment, those are viable solutions. Why don´t you try to help Mexico become economically stronger? That way people wouldn´t need to go to the US.
There are many ways to adress this issue. Vigilantes are not the answer. The only thing coming out of this will be more violence, and more death.

Not to mention that i don´t believe for one second in their motivations to do this... They are not there to help law enforcement, they are there to enforce their own idea of what the law should be.

[Nuke]

nuke the damn border, its all useless desert anyway

oh and i think mexicans are cool

[Bobboau]

look I just want to know who is in my country, or at the very least for some government agency to know, why the hell they can't just come in here the legal way I don't understand. but they are comeing in illigaly and this can not be allowed to continue.

I don't want random people enforceing the border, I want the government to do one of the few jobs I think it should be doing (namely protecting it's own god damned soverienty), I would like to see, oh... what 3,000... 4,000 national gaurd level troops patroleing the border. if this band of 'rednecks' brings atention to this problem then I'm all for them, they don't seem to be doing any harm at the moment, they aren't breaking any laws, so who the hell cares?

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
How can you possibly know that, unless you are a border guard or a minuteman yourself? The fact is, the border patrol are saying this, not i. The info about the sensors being tripped by minutemen came from the US Border patrol themselfs. Not from me, and not from "certain grups of people".
Seems to me they are not as carefull as you think they are.

I highly doubt that this is the case.  I suppose that some of the Minutemen could have tripped these accidentally... but the Minutemen are ordered to stay in their positions and watch, not sneak around.

It's also possible that the media have conflated two different reports: ones where the border patrols say they are afraid that Minutemen would set off motion detectors, and ones that indicate the ACLU and others have triggered false alarms.

And how can you say they are just sitting there and calling the cops, and not confronting the illegals, when the numbers show especifically a rise in numbers of those confrontations?

Gilchrist said the Minutemen are under strict orders to merely identify and follow illegal border crossers and alert federal agents. They should not interact with the immigrants except to offer food, water or medical care. If there's a couple of "bad apples" who turn up in the group, Gilchrist said, they will face prosecution if they step outside the law.

They're to identify and report immigrants only.  The border patrol people are the ones who do the actual confrontation.  More reports of immigrants = more confrontations.

If you think the presence of a few armed civilians is going to act as deterrement, you have a thing coming.

As opposed to the presence of a few armed border patrol guards?  These guys are helping the border patrol do exactly what the RAF did in World War II: deploy a small force to the area where it's most needed, each time it's needed.  This is more effective than simply spreading the force out even more thinly.

Vigilantes are not the answer. The only thing coming out of this will be more violence, and more death.

Not to mention that i don´t believe for one second in their motivations to do this... They are not there to help law enforcement, they are there to enforce their own idea of what the law should be.

You seem unable to grasp the concept that there may be some people who do have the integrity for this.  They care enough to volunteer to help the border patrols and they are scrupulous enough to stick to their assigned tasks (watch and report only).

[Ford Prefect]

I don't trust anyone who really wants to do that. But hey, I'm a naturalist.

[Carl]

Dey tuk ar jerbs!

Dey tok our jurbs!

Durk uh durrr!

[redmenace]

Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
They are not there to help law enforcement, they are there to enforce their own idea of what the law should be.

What does the law actually say? As far as I know, crossing the boarder through either not going through customs or through the gates is illegal. So what are these guys doing wrong by looking across the boarder and then calling the boarder patrol and reporting a flagrant dissegaurd for the law by the crossing of the boarder? Granted, these guys are worried about jobs going to cheap labor than cut throat murders getting across.

Funny reading to http://whatheidisays.blogspot.com/2005/04/silly-democrats-border-patrol.html

[Flipside]

It's interesting. The main argument against vigilantism is that the people actually pretending to be law enforcement are not trained for dealing with those situations. Just a glance at the number of violent incidents between the Minutemen and the Immigrants does help to suggest that.

Possibly if the government were to set up a 'Civilian Border Patrol', sort of like our 'Specials' (which would actually work if the Police were to put one special officer with each patrol, rather than leaving them on their own)? At least that way they would be accountable for their actions, and there would be an official channel for any complaints, which may help a little.

My own thoughts at the moment are that these people have found a nice little rock to hide under of 'Protection US sovereignty' as an excuse to go out and legally raise a little hell. Not that what they are doing is 'wrong' in the eyes of the law, but I feel that their motives are based in slightly less grand ideals than they say they are

[Kosh]

Originally posted by Bobboau
then they get arrested

In theory, but how can anyone control them when they are out there if they are left unsupervised by professionals?

which would actually work if the Police were to put one special officer with each patrol, rather than leaving them on their own

Exactly.