Author Topic: New Orleans "relief" efforts  (Read 14780 times)

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Offline Kazan

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New Orleans "relief" efforts
Reasons this **** is going down

1) (knowingly and directly.. see my other thread) pulled funding for the Army Corp of Engineer's project that would have shored up the levis to a point where they would have been strong enough to not have failed
2) People were arrogant/morons and didn't evacuate [or some poor bastards couldn;t]
3) the city was not build below sea level it subsided because we drained wetlands to build subdivisons - this lowered the water table causing subsidance, restoring these wetlands will stop [and could minorly reverse] the subsidance. (several FEMA officials have said they want to ban reconstruction in the wetlands area - to restore them because this and the fact they would act as "Sponges" for torrential rains and reduce flooding)
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Offline icespeed

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New Orleans "relief" efforts
in answer to bob's question, this is the first i've heard of the rioting. i vaguely remember hearing sth about some random hurricane destined for america's shores like a week ago but that was about it. maybe i just live w my head down a hole, but seriously none of the radio stations or tv updates have said v much about it. (this is in newcastle, australia, btw)
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Offline Bobboau

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New Orleans "relief" efforts
thank god!
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Offline icespeed

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New Orleans "relief" efforts
?? why?
$quot;Let your light shine before men...$quot;
Matthew 5:16

When I graduate, I'm going to be a doctor, and people are going to come to me looking for treatment and prescription drugs, and I'm going to give it to them. Is anyone scared yet?

$quot;If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord', and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.$quot; Romans 10:9

 

Offline Bobboau

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New Orleans "relief" efforts
because there are third world countrys that could...would... no, have handled situations like this far better than we have.

it's a major American city, left lawless, broken, stinking of waist and decaying human bodies, and otherwise utterly destroyed, overnight. you don't see why I might be releaved that it isn't getting much atention?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2005, 11:03:03 pm by 57 »
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Offline StratComm

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New Orleans "relief" efforts
Because 1) while devestating, this is nothing that the US shouldn't be able to handle, and 2) because Bob is of the opinion that our government is making a mockery of crisis management.  I'm of a slightly differing opinion on point 2, and while I don't want to downplay the extent of human suffering, even in this country there are only a finite number of resources available to do the job.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline icespeed

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New Orleans "relief" efforts
it's a bit weird, tho, ain't it, that stuff associated w terrorists and Middle Eastern politics and that was splashed all over our news (as in 9/11), but sth like this, which prob will end up w an equal death toll @ least (will it? someone check statistics) and which is quite terrible in terns of human suffering and so forth is not... ? seems like politics really makes e difference in what we get told.
$quot;Let your light shine before men...$quot;
Matthew 5:16

When I graduate, I'm going to be a doctor, and people are going to come to me looking for treatment and prescription drugs, and I'm going to give it to them. Is anyone scared yet?

$quot;If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord', and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.$quot; Romans 10:9

 

Offline StratComm

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New Orleans "relief" efforts
What's really weird in that regard is the stampede in Iraq that killed close to a thousand people.  It was both middle-eastern and to a certain extent terror-related, but it's gotten relatively little (read: basically no) news coverage in the states.  Admittedly, this hurricane business is much closer to home, and will more directly impact more people worldwide, but still.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Bobboau

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New Orleans "relief" efforts
well there's no one to blame, it's no fun if you can't point fingers.
[edit]hey, what do you know, that adressed both of your posts![/edit]

and the death toll could easily be 10,000, I'm not kidding when I say 'the stench of bodys rotting in the 8 feet of water that was once a street'. the sheer number of dead people is, as I understand it, inumerable (thought this may just be sensational jornalism).
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 
New Orleans "relief" efforts
Quote
Originally posted by Deepblue


Dude this has nothing to do with race or class. Rich and poor who decided to wait out the storm are suffering the consequences. And the majority race is do mostly to the make up of the population. The problem lies in the cities almost complete lack of preperation for the worst. They should have had National Guardsmen placed throughout the area before havok broke loose. Ultimately this is the Governer's responsibility.


sorry for the rant its just that its sad to see that many people of one minority, and the truth is, MOSTLY THAT one minority, stuck down there as the majority who is going to suffer the most from all this. those who cant afford cars, or the means to get out when they had a chance had no choice but to hunker down and try to wait it out.... the poverty level just went from worse to the 5th ring of hell!

beyond that your right at anyrate.

 
New Orleans "relief" efforts
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
and the death toll could easily be 10,000, I'm not kidding when I say 'the stench of bodys rotting in the 8 feet of water that was once a street'. the sheer number of dead people is, as I understand it, inumerable (thought this may just be sensational jornalism).

Depends on your source Bob.

The flooding sounds an awful lot like the tsunami from last year. I hope they pay attention to that. The response does seem a little delayed. Anyone know where the National Guard is coming from? Maybe they had to wait for the hurricane to dissipate if it was in the way.

I don't understand why anyone would shoot a helicopter, other than that they've completely lost their minds due to pre-existing conditions and/or from the conditions: lack of food and water, intense heat, etc. That will drive most people delirious.

 
Life goes on, like it...or not
Quote
Originally posted by Stealth
I'm watching this country fall to pieces over a RELATIVELY SMALL EVENT IN THE BIG SCHEME OF THINGS.  


That's funny, everything seems to be fine where I am.  Gas prices are up but that's practically normal nowadays.  Matter of fact it's so nice here I'm going to play Battlefield 2 for most of the night (no work tomorrow, WOOHOO!)!

 
New Orleans "relief" efforts
Quote
Originally posted by StratComm
Because 1) while devestating, this is nothing that the US shouldn't be able to handle, and 2) because Bob is of the opinion that our government is making a mockery of crisis management.  I'm of a slightly differing opinion on point 2, and while I don't want to downplay the extent of human suffering, even in this country there are only a finite number of resources available to do the job.


the sad thing is that its not that the government is intentionally making a mockery of this (last thing bush and his conservies wanted to do was tap the oil reserve), but its a matter of fact that the current leaders of THIS COUNTRY are so fuc-kin behind the reality of things that "most of our lawmakers are still on vacation and may come back to work a 'lil' bit early than usual". this is coming STRAIGHT from the white house. this is pathetic man. the president doesnt get a break, the lawmakers do, prez may take a vacation when he feels like it (cause truth is, when bush isnt planning middle east nonsense, half the time his function is meetings, debreifings, and signing laws/documents), but its not like he cant do a fidel castro and snap his fingers and make things happen.

maybe any other person in his shoes might make the same slow responces, but jesus christ not EVERYONE in our government is ->THIS SLOW!<

truth is if he wanted to he'd tell the other states to lend national gauards men to the areas affected, extra army personel, have the navy out there assisting in evacuations, there are so many things that arent directly government resource but that all he'd have to do is say GO, and they would go cause people want to help. on 9/11 there was no looting, none. no wild shooters looking for arabs to get revenge on and whatnot, everyone including myself was down there in the thick of it and we all helped as much as we could until the national guard came in. Our govenor (as much as i dont like pataki) and guliani was able to procure national guardsmen, airforce, and sea based assistance in far less time. and were talking about a man made disaster compared to a natural disaster which is 5x worse than 9/11 and maybe double the capacity of the Asian Tsunami.

the Tenesse gov asked the gov'ment to get cruise ships to the docks down there (mind u carnival offered), the government said NO. "money issues". seriously. were talkin bout ships that can take 5000 people at a time out of the areas into texas and florida and surounding areas and that can support that many people at sea and provide shelter for a certain amount of time. gov said no, too much money.

the govenor (and the old one) pleaded for 40,000 national guardsmen to help evacuate and maintain lawenforcement, only now theyre getting it. theyve even asked for army support heli's to put pressure on armed groups to intimidate them, Military said no, so the reservists (who asked also), cant support themselves anymore than the police can.

The military isnt even deploying assets down there to make things happen at an excelerated pace.

and yes its quite interesting how with 9/11 because its political based, Land, Air and Sea asets were in NEW YORK airspace @ 11am ready to kick ass, and yet a week later, grey hound, GREY HOUND is doing a better job at helping out than the people that STATE ELECTED INTO OFFICE! :hopping: !!!! people were cleanin that area the second it got owned by the collapses.... (pardon l33t).

things need to get done. the leveys need fixing and the army corps of engineers should have apaches protecting them. or atleast skiff boats the military used in vietnam or in hawaii... u know anything to allow them to get things done.

had this been an attack on the US, u best believe our governments responce woulda probrably been just as slow.

"again, no more ranting for me today. I fully understand that if i can do better, then i should run for Bushes job...."

  
New Orleans "relief" efforts
Quote
Originally posted by vyper
1 - Proper evacuation
2 - 10,000 troops obviously isn't enough and consider FEMA spend their lives planning for these things you'd think there would be contingencies in place that would involve massive amounts of man-power and relief.
3 - Remember that when I say budget spend I include the use of resources like men and machinery. Besides which the US government is in  a lot more debt that it likes to talk about.


LETS ALL REMEMBER THAT THIS IS THE AGENCY AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WHOM THE 9/11 PANEL DEEMED, "LACKED THE IMAGINATION TO SEE and did not realize the GRAVITY OF THE SITUATION!!!!!!"

and by the way i can see it now 2 months/years later, the Katrina Comission, finding out why the government failed again for the 5th time since Pearl Harbor.... and the reason again was...

omfg! LACK OF IMAGINATION AND DIDNT REALIZE THE GRAVITY OF THINGS....

u gotta love white house speach writers emphasis on trying to dumb down the sentance, which means in plain old ENGLISH....

"WE F-U*CK-ED UP Because we were not taking the word of the national weather advisory service."

 

Offline Singh

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New Orleans "relief" efforts
One comment from the logistical issues. I believe the US does possess Navy boats and other equipment that can navigate through rivers, estuaries and stuff, and would be suitable for this sort of a situation, providing essential logistical at the very least, to escort and defensive services against armed bandits at the very most. I also believe the US military has Marines and other units dedicated to working in such environments with little or no support and to accomplish as much as possible. Simply sending in an armed escort for dissauding, if not actual response would be more suitable than just sending civlian Helis in. The same holds true for many military helicopters that can supply aid and resources to front lines; again in situations of significant logistics difficulty.

It is extremely surprising that despite possesing such advanced technology and resources, it has taken so long for deployment (if at all) in such a situation......
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Offline StratComm

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New Orleans "relief" efforts
You know, it's the repeated use of this type of statement that I'm having trouble stomaching: "maybe double the capacity of the Asian Tsunami"

I'm sorry, but no.  This is not a quarter-of-a-million+ death toll occurance.  It's nothing remotely that high.  It's devestating to the regions affected, yes.  It's creating a serious negative economic impact at least nation-wide and perhaps worldwide, and I don't deny that either.  But it is nowhere near the order of magnitude of death and destruction that the 12/04 Asian tsunami was.  It is, however, bigger and fundamentally different from 9/11 in more ways than I have the time or patience to go in to here.  One difference that I will at least put out there though is that the entire region is completely unable to function, unlike 9/11 New York which was simply unwilling to function due to panic.

Also, anyone pretending this is resticted to New Orleans is completely overlooking the fact that this is only one devestated city out of a hundred miles of coastline, and in fact is only becoming a problem because of damage inflicted after the storm in a way that no one predicted.  Topping the levys was expected.  But the water would have stopped rising as soon as the storm passed.  The rupture of the levys was a completely different scenario and nothing could have been done to prepare for that in the few days notice the storm could possibly have given (not to discount their poor overall state, but that was a long-term fault not really pertenent to the relief/rescue/recovery efforts).  The civil disorder, too, is not something that could be properly addressed until it started happening, as declaring martial law and putting troops into the city for security without the context of "urban warfare" would be stupid on many levels.

EDIT: And unless something has changed recently, the Army Corps of Engineers aren't in need of protection.  They're working on a portion of the city that is - literally - completely inaccessable by anyone without specialized equipment and they aren't doing anything that anyone could concievably get any advantage out of disrupting.  It's general lawlessness that is the issue here.  And it's not like the military is sitting on its ass with rescue and recovery ops either, it's just that you're hearing more about the civilian end of things for reasons that should be obvious.

EDIT2: What I am dissapointed with is the delay in getting the people who actually rode the storm out in shelters out of the city, now that the magnitude of the damage has been properly assessed.  THAT should have been in planning before the storm even hit, as the understanding that these people would be stranded for more than a week was a given if the storm made a direct hit on the city.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2005, 12:17:36 am by 570 »
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 
New Orleans "relief" efforts
ok well then i think since we have reached an impass, we'll wait till we actually get a rough figure on how many people possibly died....

One thing is official, and ig ot this off weather.com and some other site and cnn news channel... the wave was higher than the Tsunami's. almost 10 feet higher, and blowing in originally at the huricanes minimum to top speeds...

 

Offline StratComm

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New Orleans "relief" efforts
Which is absolutely irrelivant to New Orleans because the city is not, in fact, on the coastline.  Nevermind the fact that you're convoluting data here; first of all, the Tsunami waves were as high as 30m, which you will absolutely not get as a shore wave during a hurricane.  Ocean swells of that hight maybe, but those are surface waves that do not carry well onto land.  The storm surge, which is what I suspect you're quoting, was 30ft high at the most in certain parts of Mississippi (Billoxi (sp?)).  Secondly, you're confusing waves with storm surge; storm surge is not a single wave but rather something akin to water piling up in certain regions due to pressure from the wind.  Storm surges are like beachfront floods; they don't come crashing in (though their current can be very strong) but rather act more like a quick-rising extremely high tide.  Waves can travel on top of them, but their arrival is not as sudden as that of a Tsunami, nor are their speeds, in fact, as high.  But as I said, when talking about New Orleans this is irrelivant because the city is not on the ocean but rather between a VERY protected inlet and a river.  Anyway, while there may be thousands of casualties from this storm, that would still account for maybe 1% of the loss suffered from the Tsunami.  It may be worse, but even at worst case scenario, we're still only talking about maybe 5% as many casualties.  The magnitudes are simply different.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2005, 12:39:05 am by 570 »
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Zuljin

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New Orleans "relief" efforts
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4207202.stm

Quote
US troops, armed with a shoot-to-kill policy, are being sent to New Orleans to quell growing lawlessness, four days after Hurricane Katrina hit.


I wonder how this will turn out.
As stated in the article, these soldiers are being sent from Iraq, or have atleast previously been there, so they should know what they are doing.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2005, 03:31:10 am by 1458 »

 

Offline Roanoke

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New Orleans "relief" efforts
I couldn't believe the reports of people shooting at the Relief choppers.