[Shrike]

Originally posted by Styxx
Har har. I actually wrote quite a lengthy post about it when I was at the lab, but the connection seemed to hit a snag and I couldn't post.

Our system is very low tech.  We don't bother with the circus midget and just re-elect the Liberals.

I don't know if we use any voting machines in Canada.  I've always voted on paper ballots that get put into cardboard boxes.  Very state of the art.

[Mefustae]

Screw all elections I say, they only lead to trouble and moronic officials gaining the ability to get into Power through simply power, not ability...not speaking of anyone in particular...

...Seriously, rather than have elections, just stick the candidates inside a big arena with weapons covering the walls (anyone who's read 'Red Dwarf' will know the kind of thing i'm talking about) and have them all fight to the death. Hell, we could elect all politicians this way, as it'll lead to far, far less politicians...which I think will just be for the betterance of Society as a whole...

...And for those argueing that the election(s) within the US were not legitimate, think about it; lately, nobody assosciates the words "United States" & "Election" with "Legitamate" anymore, if you still are, get with the times...

[SadisticSid]

FTR, I'm a moderately right-wing conservative, but I don't have any love for the Republicans whatsoever, and I would've been quite indifferent to see Bush go last year.

But look at these studies and reports investigating corruption and fraud which resulted in a count favourable to the GOP. They do not even consider that the same thing could have been happening under Democrat auspices. There was plenty of dodgy crap going on during the 90s just like there is now under Bush, and I'm not inclined to believe that either of the parties is less corrupt than the other. What makes for a more interesting study, "Democrats rigged votes but still lost" or "Republicans swayed election by elecoral fraud"? If anyone looked into it from the other perspective I'll bet it was happening at some magnitude.

[karajorma]

Then both sides should be punished surely? Not just having the matter swept under the carpet on the suspicion that the democrats did it too.

[SadisticSid]

Of course, I wasn't implying otherwise, but like I said, all these investigations have been squarely focused on the Republican side without regard for the possibility that it could've been happening under the Democrats' too, and outside of Florida.

[karajorma]

The investigations have been carried out by democrats looking for proof that something was going on. Yes that means that there is a bias but why the f**k isn't this investigation now being handled by an impartial agency in the first place?

[redmenace]

It is the states right and responcibility to run elections, kara, they cannot be forced to do anything in any particular way. The constitution does however grant equal protection under the law which can be applied to the states and to voting procedures.

[aldo_14]

Within the context of it being the states right to run elections, is there a requirement for states to employ a veriably neutral 3rd party to run elections?  Or is it left to the incumbent to organize it as they see fit?

Because the latter would strike me as being wide open for abuse.

Mind you, I view the entire US democratic system as pretty corrupt, given the number of special interest groups and lobbyists seeking to influence both the result and the actions of the elected politicians.  A consequence of such a large country, perhaps (more money to go round, more needed for campaigning), but not something I like to see happening in the UK (as it would seem to be, sadly).

[vyper]

Which is why the export of US style government has led to many nations crumbling into chaos or dictatorship.

Parliaments FTW!

[ShadowWolf_IH]

Facist?  This from a man who will only accept as valid anything which proves his opinion, and calls lie to anything which stands against it.

Kazan i am so much more open minded than you are that it isn't funny, i can say that because i am willing to accept another person's point of view and give it due consideration.  You on the other hand are willing to accept only those items which further your own opinions.

I remember the first words you ever said to me....and now i give them back to you.....Blow me.

[Kazan]

redmenace the states can be forced to do things in a particular way if their state-run election systems are found to be insufficiently trustworthy.

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Re: to the "democrats may have done it to"

Yes they may have done it, and had they have done it I would be proposing the same changes. These changes I briefly touched on would block any party from tampering with the elections. Each state should have to have a panel of multiple officials with equal numbers from all the major parties running their elections: not single partisan officials.


Now - there was no evidence of any election fraud in the 1990s on an appreciable scale

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ShadowWolf you Think you're much more open minded than me because you assume that I form my opinion then look for evidence to support it.  Probably becuase at some point in the past you did exactly what you are accusing me of and I rejected your pathetic excuse for evidence on one of the following grounds:
* It wasn't actually evidence (ie your argument was non sequitur
* The study/report you cited was falsified and later proven to be falsified
* Your entire argument rested upon logical fallacies

You couldn't be more wrong.

I refine my opinion to the evidence - not my evidence to the opinion.

Come up with counter evidence to the evidence put forward in the article.  Try and refute the expert opinions of numerous computer scientists on the computer security of the Diebold E-Voting Equipment-  Refute the sworn testimoney of a computer scientist before the Senate on how he was contracted to write a hack for E-Voting machines that would allow the election to be manipulated without notice (he presumed it was so they could learn to detect such hacks.. until he finished the code then the republican house rep who hired him told them it was going to be used).

[Grey Wolf]

Now for an attempt at reconcilation.

Kazan, you have, in the past, been shown to blow things out of proportion, and also a distinct tendency for beating dead horses.

Shadowwolf, I seem to remember an incident where you overreacted. Let's attempt to avoid an all-out flame war, OK?

[Kazan]

Grey Wolf: i wouldn't say blow things out of proportion but rather take things more seriously than some in the case of the particular subjects in question.


but aye shadowwolf is just flamebaiting.

[Grey Wolf]

You don't remember your whole giant crusade on circumcision, Kazan?

[Unknown Target]

Could you all just shut up about politics? For once?
Seriously, I love debates and all that jazz, but it's just getting to be too much.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

Flamebaiting?  I paid you several compliments and got called a fascist for my troubles.  My opnion differs from your, therefore it is not worth thinking about, had you thought about what i was saying to you, you would have realized that it wasn't about the article at all, but about you, and where you choose to apply your strengths, but more importantly, where you choose to ignore them.

Research the SCP and find our first conversation, then you may see where i am coming from.  By the way.....i like spaghetti....i'll bet you can now find a logical arguement not to eat spaghetti.

so while we sit here and debate the merits of flaming, i think that in the end one thing remains prevalent.  While it isn't your abilities that are in question, it is instead your maturity level.  Now i am done with this.  have your rebuttle and say no more, because i won't.

Greywolf.....everyone overreacts from time to time....i know that i have, and i am sure that you have as well.

[Kazan]

you went on like a typical partisan hack about how "your party lost... get over it" -- just because you peppered some off-topic compliment in doesn't cancel out the fact that you were making a markedly partisan hackish argument that helps fascism grow in america.

the entire spagetti thing is a false analogy.

[Fineus]

Please prove we admins wrong and don't let this descend into stupidity the way political threads have before. If it keeps happening we'll just lock them as they're posted and save ourselves the time.

[Grey Wolf]

Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
Flamebaiting?  I paid you several compliments and got called a fascist for my troubles.  My opnion differs from your, therefore it is not worth thinking about, had you thought about what i was saying to you, you would have realized that it wasn't about the article at all, but about you, and where you choose to apply your strengths, but more importantly, where you choose to ignore them.

Research the SCP and find our first conversation, then you may see where i am coming from.  By the way.....i like spaghetti....i'll bet you can now find a logical arguement not to eat spaghetti.

so while we sit here and debate the merits of flaming, i think that in the end one thing remains prevalent.  While it isn't your abilities that are in question, it is instead your maturity level.  Now i am done with this.  have your rebuttle and say no more, because i won't.

Greywolf.....everyone overreacts from time to time....i know that i have, and i am sure that you have as well.

No offense intended. I just seemed to remember that it also involved an argument with Kazan, and it got a bit messy.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

Grey wolf, i think i know what you are talking about.....and that one didn't have anything to do with Kazan.....

Although considering how many times he and i have butt heads, it is understandable.

And Kazan...Nice rebuttle...but i said i would leave it with your rebuttle.  Cool?