Author Topic: The Problem With Linux  (Read 27834 times)

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Offline Bobboau

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hence why linux has acheaved such a huge swath of people... oh wait thats right, it's still basicly obscure.

people are makeing a choice to try linux, but wich one is something they can't make any desisions on because they are totaly ignorant of it. there needs to be one single starting block, that's it, one of the windowlike distros needs to be designated the default starting position, and a big bold "TRY LINUX NOW" button on linux.com should direct to it. asking someone to pick a distro without haveing any context for the diferences between them _is_ burdensome and unreasonable, and the lack of usership is my proof. I'm sure half the computerliterate people on the planet have consitered linux, but looking into it they saw all sorts of things they were expected to make choices on and decided not to bother.

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Offline mikhael

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My god, Bob, when you put it that way, I guess you're absolutely right. Requiring people to make and effort and learn something before making a decision IS too much to ask. You've convinced me.

*nix--Linux, BSD or whatever--doesn't need acceptance on those terms. Let the peasants eat cake.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 12:19:14 am by 440 »
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Offline WMCoolmon

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
My god, Bob, when you put it that way, I guess you're absolutely right. Requiring people to make and effort and learn something before making a decision IS too much to ask. You've convinced me.

*nix--Linux, BSD or whatever--doesn't need acceptance on those terms. Let the peasants eat cake.


Damn straight it is, when you have got better things to worry about than to figure out which Linux distro will _work_ with a minimum of fuss.

There's a quote that expresses this much better. But occassionally, I want to get something done with a minimum of fuss and hassle. Sometimes apt-get will work, and it'll go much faster than with Windows. Other times it won't, and I'll have to spend more time googling, asking questions on forums, asking questions in the Ubuntu IRC channel, etc etc.

Kami's suggested maybe it's my choice of distro...I've got the LiveDVD of SUSE that I figure I'll try out sometime.

But I'm seriously considering moving back to Windows for one simple reason: stuff works. Spending time looking for why something isn't working and asking in IRC channels is something that I find is rare in Windows. Usually I just install the program and I can start using it.

Maybe it's just my choice of distros. Maybe it's my choice of computer hardware. But I don't have the inclination to try out every single Linux distro out there.

Open source is a great ideology...but at a certain point, it just gets to where paying some $$ outweighs the gain of using unreliable software, or "researching" it. (Which is not infallible; I've heard that mikmod will play the mod formats I've got on my computer from various places/people...nope.)

If it is generally felt in the Linux community that people should move over, there has to be a reason or motivation to go to the trouble to do so. Take OS X. It's a great reason to switch over to macs. Linux has...you'll get more familiar with Linux by troubleshooting? But few people use Linux except IT types, so what good is that going to do someone who isn't obsessed with computers?

If that's not a general feeling, then I'd say it's going just fine.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 02:13:16 am by 374 »
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Offline Martinus

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[color=66ff00]I'd say one of the biggest reasons why linux has config issues is the lack of support from hardware manufacturers. You can't make a piece of hardware run smoothly without detailed information, the kind of information manufacturers give to microsoft.

Also regarding 'TRY LINUX NOW', you'll find that any smart linux user who wants a new user to walk away with a good picture of linux will point people towards a live CD before telling them to choose a distro, there's a tonne of distro comparisons on the net so determining which one you think will work for you isn't too hard.
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Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by WMCoolmon
Damn straight it is, when you have got better things to worry about than to figure out which Linux distro will _work_ with a minimum of fuss.

People aren't switching to Linux for a "minimum of fuss". They're making a fundamental change in the way they use computers. Its like asking a Windows user to switch to a  Mac and expect it to be a "minimum of fuss". Not bloody likely. I respectfually submit that if you have better things to do than figure out which Linux distro is right for you, you should be doing them, instead of making a poorly thought out leap into a new OS.

Quote

But I'm seriously considering moving back to Windows for one simple reason: stuff works. Spending time looking for why something isn't working and asking in IRC channels is something that I find is rare in Windows. Usually I just install the program and I can start using it.

You know, that's my experience with FreeBSD: I just install the program and I can start using it. It is extraordinarily rare that I have to figure out why the installation failed, or why the program is not performing as advertised.

Of course, I don't advocate ditching Windows. It makes as much sense to ditch Windows as it does to ditch your PS2 just because you've got a Gamecube.

Quote
Open source is a great ideology...but at a certain point, it just gets to where paying some $$ outweighs the gain of using unreliable software, or "researching" it. (Which is not infallible; I've heard that mikmod will play the mod formats I've got on my computer from various places/people...nope.)

So you make that choice. There's been lots of times I bought software because it does exactly what I want rather than having
to cobble something together out of bits I found in Freshports.org; or sometimes I just want a product now rather than waiting for something comparable to come out from the FOSS community.
Why under the stars would you have to choose only ONE over the other? This isn't a binary proposition. To abuse cars some more, I'd rather pay someone to change my spark plugs for me, but I'll change my own tire. I don't have to pay someone to change my tire just because I pay someone to change my spark plugs.

Quote

If it is generally felt in the Linux community that people should move over, there has to be a reason or motivation to go to the trouble to do so. Take OS X. It's a great reason to switch over to macs. Linux has...you'll get more familiar with Linux by troubleshooting? But few people use Linux except IT types, so what good is that going to do someone who isn't obsessed with computers?

You'll get more experience with Linux by using Linux. Its as simple as that and its exactly the same as everything else. I must ask though, if you don't need to use Linux, why switch to it? If the answer to that is "because I wanted to try something different" or "because I hate Windows" (or something similar), you've taken it upon yourself to make an effort. Not just one effort, but a series of efforts.



Christ I hate this thread, but its touched a nerve. I'm finding myself defending Linux and I absolutely loathe Linux. I'm doing it because of that nerve I mentioned. Most of what I'm seeing is "make it easier" and a general consensus that the user shouldn't have to do any sort of homework before trying out *nix. That's my sticking point. The only users that should try *nix are the users who are going to do the homework, the ones who are going to read, the ones who will make an effort. That's the bottom line.

We are not talking about switching from Hotmail to YahooMail to Gmail. We're talking about the operating system of your computer. Not only that, we're talking about moving from a hand-holding operating system to one that expects the user to be willing to tinker a bit. You're making the decision to give up some hand holding.  If you don't want to give up the hand holding, don't switch.

*nix and BSD don't need to be Windows. They don't need to BEAT Windows. They don't have to take over the computing world. The only thing they NEED to be is available to the people that WANT to use them.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 09:27:20 am by 440 »
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Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
*nix and BSD don't need to be Windows. They don't need to BEAT Windows. They don't have to take over the computing world. The only thing they NEED to be is available to the people that WANT to use them.


That's a great sentiment and one I agree with 100%. Most of us would agree with it more if the linux zealots didn't keep proclaiming that everyone should be using linux instead of windows as if that would be the end of everybodies computer problems.

I personally don't have the time to get the depth of experience with Unix that I have with Windows. I'd rather spend that time learning C++ as a result I don't run unix. But I don't assume the OS should change just to make it easier for me to use.

Had someone suggested that AmigaOS should become more like Windows to get a larger user-base 5-6 years ago when I used it almost exclusively I would have ripped off their head and :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored:  down their neck for daring to suggest such heresy so I don't blame you in the slightest for being pissed off with people who suggest that Linux needs to do it.

That said there are elements within the linux community who are largely responsible for bring this on themselves by stating that Linux is the answer to computer problems for computer illiterate or semi-literate users when it's plainly obvious that a hand-holding OS like Windows or MacOS is a much better proposition for them.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 09:57:59 am by 340 »
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Offline Martinus

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Originally posted by karajorma
That said the linux community is largely responsible for bring this on themselves by stating that Linux is the answer to computer problems for computer illiterate or semi-literate users when it's plainly obvious that a hand-holding OS like Windows or MacOS is a much better proposition for them.

[color==66ff00]:lol: Where was this stated? It's one of the more misguided sentiments I've ever seen.

That being said I still believe there should be a computer licence, you don't get one until you pass the basic stupidity aversion exam. It doesn't seem to be a popular idea though, much the same as my parenting licence which would solve the ongoing issue of world stupidity.
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Offline karajorma

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I agree with both concepts actually. Especially seeing as how like with cars you can cause problems for other people if you mismanage an internet enabled computer (zombies, etc) or how you raise your kids :)

As for the first statement it's not the entire linux community that is responsible. Just the fanboys within it who spout "Should have been using Linux" as the answer to any problem someone states with MacOS or Windows. If I had a pound for every time a stupid sentiment like that has been stated on the internet I could buy Microsoft and end the debate once and for all. :D

Anyway I'll edit my original statement so that people don't get confused about what I was saying.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 09:58:32 am by 340 »
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Offline Martinus

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[color=66ff00]It just goes to prove that so called smart people can be idiots too. ;)

There are too many people riding on the anti MS sentiment when they should simply be arguing the benefits of using Linux.
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Offline karajorma

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Exactly. This isn't like the "Should have been using Firefox" argument that many of us use. Firefox and IE are pretty much the same thing as far as UI goes. I swapped my mum (who's about as computer illeterate as they come) over from one to the other simply by installing Firefox, hiding the IE icon and telling her that favourites was now called bookmarks.

Telling someone that they should be using Linux because they got an e-mail virus on the other hand is completely stupid. IF all you want to do is check your e-mail, surf the web and use a few different programs (including games) then getting Linux and installing Wine so you can play them is a completely stupid way of solving the problem. Telling them not to run exe files in e-mail and installing Thunderbird is much better.
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Offline Sandwich

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I have downloaded a Ubuntu 5.10 Live CD ISO and will be rebooting in a bit. I will (try to) post my experiences on using it for the first time from Ubuntu itself over the weekend.
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Offline mikhael

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This is the proper way to do things. If you need help, feel free to ask.

Remember though: like all worthwhile things, how much you get out of it will be directly related to how much you put into it.
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Offline Sandwich

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Ok, but understand that I'm looking at this from the POV of the people I was trying to speak for... the computer-illiterate, the easily overwhelmed. I'm gonna be harsh. ;)

So I booted it up. The gazilion lines of "Loading this, loading that" are overwhelming. However, it's just as well, since it hung on the Enterprise Volume Management System stage. The cursor would react to stimuli (I hit enter, and it'd go to the next line, etc), but nothing was happening. So I cheated and tried stuff that I know from many years of working with computers: CTRL-Q/Z/X/C. CTRL-C worked, but I think the first time I pressed it twice, so it canceled the booting and started shutting things down. And, of course, it halted while trying to shut down the Enterprise Volume Management System. Again.

At this point I almost gave up (since this was a test for newbs, not for me). But the Me in myself wanted to figure this out. So I rebooted, and again, it got stuck at that stage. I hit CTRL-C once this time, and after a few seconds, it resumed booting. Yay!

Ok, so after some very visually awkward hopping back and forth between the Ubuntu logo and the DOS-esque loading stat screens, it finally loaded up completely.

The next snag I ran into is very unlikely to be run into by a computer newbie, as it is because of my widescreen monitor. The system was displaying at a resolution of 1024x768 (or was it 1280x1024? I didn't even notice...), but it was stretched to fill the whole screen. So the CD icon on the desktop, for example, was stretched into an oval. Fine, needs some adjustments; wide-aspect ratios are uncommon enough for that to be understandable.

So I go to Change Resolution, but all it has are 4:3 ratio resolutions. Hmm - if that's the case, why isn't it displaying with black bars on the sides of my monitor? I open up my monitor's menu, and sure enough, the display is getting a 1920x1200 resolution signal, but what's being displayed in those 1920x1200 pixels is actually a 1024x768 or 1280x1024 image. Weird.

Next hitch: The obscure "Show Desktop" equivalent button where I'm used to seeing the Start menu showing. I was clicking on that about 5 or 6 times before I realized that it wasn't going to be popping up any menus.

Ok, up top is a menubar, ala OS X, that has "Applications", "Places", and "System" (or something like that). Logical, yet still confusing, especially the "Places" menu. Turns out it's like Explorer, and you use it to get to drives on the computer. Meh, okay. There's also a few icons next to those menus, for the web browser, email, and something else I forget (I'm back in XP now).

There were some cryptically blank, plain rectangles (virtual desktops) and an equally cryptic icon for the trash can in the bottom right. And that's about it.

Thing I would change to make it more friendly:

Get all that loading code out of the way by default - it's ugly and, more importantly, overwhelming. Give the user some tips (starter at first, then switchable by the user to intermediate and advanced later on) during the boot process.

Upon first boot, launch a friendly walkthrough screen or something. Anything more than dumping the user into the desktop without so much as a helping hand.

Asthetically, brown is about THE WORST color one could pick and still get away with (ie. Wired green and hot pink don't count). It's ugly. This one is made bearable by a sort of sunset look to the desktop, but the UI elements have flat brown shading - yuck. Green, blue... not brown.

My final gripe has nothing to do with Ubuntu directly, but with the *nix filesystem as a whole. The directory structure is cryptic and beyond confusing. From what I understand, HDDs are under /dev/, right? Well, "dev" is always associated with "developer" in my brain before "device". Besides, why not call it /devices/? Are the extra 4 characters that valuable? Windows has made important strides in this arena in recent years, and Vista looks to be bringing even more improvements; the filesystem is understandable. "Documents and Settings" - fine, it ain't short, but it's explanatory. "Program Files" is just dumb, tho. :p

Anyway, the point is, don't scare away people who want to peek beyond the nice-looking, pixel-thick skin you have covering everything. I would not have been able to find my HDD had I not known ahead of time that /dev/ means "devices". It recognized the card reader drives built into my monitor; why not have the HDD's there as well?
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Kamikaze

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Quote

Get all that loading code out of the way by default - it's ugly and, more importantly, overwhelming. Give the user some tips (starter at first, then switchable by the user to intermediate and advanced later on) during the boot process.


I guess Ubuntu isn't all that user friendly (BTW: I've never used it). As I said, Suse (same with Mandriva) uses bootsplash and doesn't show all that init script output by default.

Quote

Upon first boot, launch a friendly walkthrough screen or something. Anything more than dumping the user into the desktop without so much as a helping hand.


I believe there's something like that in the Suse Live DVD.

Quote

Asthetically, brown is about THE WORST color one could pick and still get away with (ie. Wired green and hot pink don't count). It's ugly. This one is made bearable by a sort of sunset look to the desktop, but the UI elements have flat brown shading - yuck. Green, blue... not brown.


That's the default Clearlooks theme. Again, Suse (same with Mandriva or Fedora) uses custom themes that are brighter.

Quote

My final gripe has nothing to do with Ubuntu directly, but with the *nix filesystem as a whole. The directory structure is cryptic and beyond confusing. From what I understand, HDDs are under /dev/, right? Well, "dev" is always associated with "developer" in my brain before "device". Besides, why not call it /devices/? Are the extra 4 characters that valuable? Windows has made important strides in this arena in recent years, and Vista looks to be bringing even more improvements; the filesystem is understandable. "Documents and Settings" - fine, it ain't short, but it's explanatory. "Program Files" is just dumb, tho. :p


Err. Technically you're correct, /dev contains the block devices for your harddrives. However, that's not where you'd access your harddrives.

There should be a "Computer" icon on your desktop. Click on it and it'll show your partitions, cd drives, flash drives, and any network drives. You're making it a lot harder than it needs to be.

It's true that the file structure doesn't make a whole lot of sense, it's a leftover from the old Unix. Back then a few characters were valuable (that's why copy is cp, rename/move is mv, etc.) It's tough to change now because that structure is assumed by all programs and standards are based around it.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 04:05:36 pm by 179 »
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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If you're messing around with the dev folder directly, you're already at a level where you should either know what it means or be able to find out relatively quickly.

Or you're following instructions, in which case it doesn't really matter. ;)


Edit: Irony strikes. When I tried to burn the SUSE LiveDVD iso, k3b immediately failed with an I/O error, even running as root.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 06:20:36 pm by 374 »
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Offline Martinus

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[color=66ff00]The real question is not if you got the OS running but if you managed t get it to do any of the stuff you normally do in windows i.e. listen to music, word-process, burn CD's, watch movies....
The OS on it's own is the facilitator, it's what you do with it that's important.

As for the linux file system, I have to agree that it's initally a bit overwhelming but when you actually figure it out once it's almost identical across all linux distros and it's actually very well thought out. You have to forget about windows' conventions.

IIRC Ubuntu uses Gnome as the interface so perhaps one of you Gnome users could point to a tutorial on customising it?

BTW, if you ever run into trouble you can almost always call up a terminal (DOS prompt) and type in 'man [whatever]' to get a MANual page for the application you're interested in.
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Offline Kamikaze

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Quote
Originally posted by WMCoolmon

Edit: Irony strikes. When I tried to burn the SUSE LiveDVD iso, k3b immediately failed with an I/O error, even running as root.


Have you configured K3B? IIRC, you're supposed to run the configuration program before using it.
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline aldo_14

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Originally posted by Sandwich


No, aldo, as much as it annoys the piss out of both you and me, it's computer illiteracy, plain and simple. Or do you have reason to think that computer illiterate people, who have trouble figuring out that a computer has to have electricity to work, somehow comprehend and look everywhere for tooltips? Please.


Thye have eyes, don't they?  The are capable of looking at a button.  They are capable of observing and remembering that sometimes little hints pop up on buttons.  They are capable of trying this, before giving up.

You're defining computer illeteracy as mass stupidity, in the same vein as people who couldn't figure out that a toaster needed electricity to work, or that the fancy picture on that magic box could be changed with a remote control.  That has nothing to do with computers.

Every major OS/program/whatever is designed nowadays with a common interface, for exactly the reason that you can't expect to have the user be nursemaid-ed through ever function they ever need to perform.  I am not going to excuse people of being too stupid to read an observe a very simple, very visual cue on the basis that it's a computer.  If they were :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: ing up by not reading the buttons on a dishwasher, we wouldn't be going "oh, it's ok, they're dishwasher illiterate".

I'd suggest, on the side, that the computer illiterate you're describing wouldn't be able to install Windows any more than a Linux distro.  So the question is surely in terms of usability, in which case it's surely more of a matter of which particular flavour of OS they used first.

 

Offline mikhael

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Originally posted by Sandwich
Ok, but understand that I'm looking at this from the POV of the people I was trying to speak for... the computer-illiterate, the easily overwhelmed. I'm gonna be harsh. ;)
[much stuff removed]


Actually, what I just read was from the point of view of a WINDOWS USER, with some Mac experience.

I should show you my mother using Knoppix. Strangely enough, the truly computer illiterate don't even notice the stuff you pointed out. You use terms like "menu" and "icon" and talk about resolution.

Let me tell you what a computer illiterate person would have done. When lots of text scrolled by, they'd have ignored it. They'd have (complainingly) waited for a desktop. Then when the stuff was out of proportion because of stretching, they would have accepted it as normal (several of my clients have wide aspect monitors, and this is precisely what they do).

You're confusing "Windows user" with "computer illiterate".
« Last Edit: October 14, 2005, 07:46:52 pm by 440 »
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Offline castor

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Get all that loading code out of the way by default - it's ugly and, more importantly, overwhelming.
And most helpful if there is a problem of some sorts :nod:
You get used to it quite fast.. soon you'll find the "black-box" booting of win systems unbelievably rude and suspicious :nervous: