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Offline aldo_14

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http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

List of transitional fossils.

Incidentally, the process of fossil formation (and the conditions required) can be put within a better context; the fossils of every person that has lived on the North American subcontinent, throughout recorded history, would be expected to yield about 2 complete skeletons.  That is, the amount of bones equivalent to that.

There are shale fossils discovered that show the development of micro-organic live, specifically the development of new phenotypes.

Of course, if the fossil record was complete for all history - that would be a miracle.  The current situation is what is to be expected with the geological/chemical processes in action; only a tiny percentage of life on earth will ever be recorded in the fossil record.

Of course, selecting a 'theory' like Id, which is untested, designed to be untestable and has no evidence, might make someone be a little blind as to the realities of scientific investigation.  Perhaps being spoonfed answers makes you believe the real world would do that too, i don't know.

[q]because you're over here saying that religious evidence doesn't qualify as evidence. and i'm saying yes it does. religion > science in this world we live in. therefore you have to accept religious evidence.[/q]

Only by your belief.  Not by any empirical system.

[q]so when people say "the sun sets". (<--common expression nowdays)... that's not literally true either. the sun isn't "setting". don't see what you're getting at by quoting this verse[/q]

The bible said the sun stopped moving and stayed steady in the sky.   How does that mesh with a moving earth theory?

[q]See, in Genesis 1:9,10, "And God began calling the dry land Earth"... therefore, God is referring to the land. not the planet, when "Earth" is referenced. therefore when the writer refers to "foundations", or "fixed", it doesn't necessarily mean the earth is flat, or resting on something. if the Bible does state the earth is flat, then why would it (as i quoted) refer to it as being a "circle". that wouldn't make sense, would it.[/q]

A circle is flat.  Take a cd, turn it on the side.  See?  Flat.  Would you make that interpretation if we - science - hadn't proved the earth was spherical?  People 5 or 6 centuries ago didn't, after all.

[q]
four corners = North, South, East, and West. did you ever think about that? Ask any kindergarden kid what the four corners of the earth are, and they'll understand. the four winds = North, south, east and west... [/q]

Sphere doesn't have corners.  Again you're interpreting based on what science has proved true.  Again, an interpretation that you would - history has shown - not make without the evidence of science.

Robert Jastrow has a Phd... in theoretical physics.  Not biology, or evolutionary science.   So he's not even qualified.

On the other hand; page 101, The Enchanted Loom;
" The fact of evolution is not in doubt."

As an aside (because someone will doubtless try and use Darwins eye example, which confused Jastrow 'ere years after it had been solved), here's how a complex fish eye could evolve in about 350,000 years; http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/eye_stages.html

EDIT; perhaps I should put your Jastrow Quote in context
[q]The abrupt manner in which whole groups of species suddenly appear in certain formations, has been urged by several palaeontologists, for instance, by Agassiz, Pictet, and by none more forcibly than by professor Sedgwick, as a fatal objection to the belief in the transmutation of species. If numerous species, belonging to the same genera or families, have really started into life all at once, the fact would be fatal to the theory of descent with slow modification through natural selection. For the development of a group of forms, all of which have descended from some one progenitor, must have been an extremely slow process; and the progenitors must have lived long ages before their modified descendants. But we continually over-rate the perfection of the geological record, and falsely infer, because certain genera or families have not been found beneath a certain stage, that they did not exist before that stage. We continually forget how large the world is, compared with the area over which our geological formations have been carefully examined; we forget that groups of species may elsewhere have long existed and have slowly multiplied before they invaded the ancient archipelagoes of Europe and of the United States. We do not make due allowance for the enormous intervals of time, which have probably elapsed between our consecutive formations, — longer perhaps in some cases than the time required for the accumulation of each formation. These intervals will have given time for the multiplication of species from some one or some few parent-forms; and in the succeeding formation such species will appear as if suddenly created.[/q]

Using false or misleading quotes is just pathetic.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 04:54:29 pm by 181 »

 

Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by Stealth
look at the coelacanth.  remember that extraordinary fish?  claimed for a long time to be a fish developing limbs, that lived millions of years ago.  until just a few years ago they found one living off the coast of Durban.......... a fish that had "limb" looking appendages, but obviously was not the cause of evolution, since "millions of years later", the fish hadn't changed physically at all, and they're still living, in our day.


A creationist strawman. Just because some of those animals chose to move onto the land doesn't mean that they all had to. That's the whole purpose of speciation. You get two distinct species where only one existed before.

It's like you're saying I can't have family in a foreign country just cause my dad chose to move to the UK.

Quote
Originally posted by Stealth
 find me a fossil of a human with gills or fins, or some transitionary phase in the evolutionary process of human beings.


Another strawman and one that actually reveals a deep ignorance of how evolution works. A human being with gills or fins would actually be proof AGAINST evolution not for it.

We've found tonnes but the paleontologists bury them again cause they know they'd be out of a job if people figured out that all those dinosaur bones are just the left overs from Gods chicken takeout on the 5th day. :D


Quote
Originally posted by Stealth
or better yet, explain to me why suddenly LIFE (<--keyword.  not "simple multi-celled organisms) erupted at the beginning of the cambrian period.  NOTE: didn't evolve over millions of years, but erupted.


Who says it didn't take millions of years? The fossil record isn't anwhere near accurate enough to give that kind of detail. You're also missing the point that a large selection pressure can push evolution forwards in a quick amount of time. Look what we've managed to do to the dog in only a few thousand years by putting an enormous selection pressure on them. The first multicellular creatures would have had an enormous positive selection pressure on an mutations that helped them. If the oceans are full of single celled bacteria any life form that can eat them is going to breed like crazy.

Quote
Originally posted by Stealth
second, you want a definition of Intelligent Design, and you refute the definitions that are thrown out why... because they're "too simple compared to evolution"?


I've thrown out every definition you've stated on the grounds that none of them have been an actual definition. They've all been vague-intions.
 How long have humans existed. ID must have an answer. What is it.

Quote
Originally posted by Stealth
  Second, you also can't say "well does mutation play a part in ID?" or any of those 'moot points', because that differs according to religion, etc.  just as evolutionists have many different theories, so do IDs.


And you'll notice that not a single scientist claims that his theory is correct because he has no proof. Are you going to do the same and say that God existing is something you're going to try to prove but in the meantime you'll conceed that there's just as much chance that one of the other religions is right and you're wrong?

On top of that the different theories are much closer together than the disparate claims that ID makes. You can't even decided whether mankind is 200,000 years old or 6000.  You can't determine whether man evolved via guided evolution or if he suddenly sprang up one day. That's a F**king huge discrepancy.
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Offline aldo_14

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Show me an ID 'theory' that has ever been tested, peer-reviewed, or even just written as an abstract, I say.

 

Offline TrashMan

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*Lookas at thread*


*backs away slowly*
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Offline karajorma

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Even if we accept that there are many theories for ID. Give us your best one.
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Offline StratComm

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Quote
Originally posted by Stealth
a couple of fossils?  even the fossils you mentioned are highly controversial, and the subject of many discussions and arguments to their validity.  take the first one for instance.  could EASILY be a dinosaur with feathers.  why does that have to be the "evolution" of a dinosaur to a bird?  find me the fossil of a human-looking creature with, say, fins, or gills... you won't find any.  the dominant species on this planet, and there's no fossil record of any mutations/evolution involving them.


[edit]In my rush to post I missed something rather important.  The feathered dinosaur example.  It has been a long-standing hypothesis that dinosaurs had evolved into birds.  There's the potential that many of them were warm-blooded, which has been bouncing around for a while, which we do not see in any reptiles on earth.  And birds still have a number of somewhat reptile-like features; feathers are highly modified scales in the way that they grow, for one, and many birds still have scales on certain parts of their bodies.  In fact, the feathered dinosaur (the authenticity of which isn't actually being questioned now, because we've got more than one fossil that exhibits those features) is the "missing link" from dinosaurs to birds and is something that actually supports a pre-existing hypothesis.  I'm not sure about the others, but calling those fossils "highly controversial" is much like saying that there's a bitter divide in scientific community over whether Evolution actually occured.  Both are completely false.[/edit]

Can you honestly have just said that the only proof you'll consider is a human with the features of some other species?  Humans and fish have no common ancestor stretching back hundreds of millions of years.  That's a completely retarded argument.

On the other hand, there are a number of species that offer some good examples of "transitional" structures.  Whales specifically have pelvic bones that serve absolutely no function, but are a remenant of the terrestrial mammels that came before them.

You talk about the fossil record as something that should be complete.  But do you have ANY IDEA how fossils are formed?  Any at all?  The fossil record is inherently incomplete, for a multitude of reasons, but most specifically because the conditions for fossilization to occur are incredibly limited and don't exist in many places in the whole world at any given time.  The odds of an animal getting caught in those conditions and then of being undisturbed long enough to turn bone to rock are exceedingly small.  Almost every species we know of today from that record exist as only skeletal fragments or a whole specimin or two.  Or did you think the dinosaur skeletons you see in museums are the ACTUAL bones?

Quote
Originally posted by Stealth
look at the coelacanth.  remember that extraordinary fish?  claimed for a long time to be a fish developing limbs, that lived millions of years ago.  until just a few years ago they found one living off the coast of Durban.......... a fish that had "limb" looking appendages, but obviously was not the cause of evolution, since "millions of years later", the fish hadn't changed physically at all, and they're still living, in our day.  find me a fossil of a human with gills or fins, or some transitionary phase in the evolutionary process of human beings.


You talk as though one animal will undergo changes in its life.  That's not how evolution works; just because some of this creature's decendants may have taken one evolutionary path hardly means they all did (and in fact it sort of has to be the opposite) and there are certain species out there that haven't changed much in millions of years.  Crocodiles.  Sharks.  They'd be much better examples, except that the whole point is invalid because nowhere in any variant of evolutionary theory does it say that any one species HAS to change much over time.

Quote
Originally posted by Stealth


 or better yet, explain to me why suddenly LIFE (<--keyword.  not "simple multi-celled organisms) erupted at the beginning of the cambrian period.  NOTE: didn't evolve over millions of years, but erupted.


First, the notes on the inherent incompleteness of the fossil record are quite pertenant here.  I haven't done the detailed research into the Cambrian explosion to know for certain, but I'm fairly certain all life from that particular period was aquatic.  If the conditions in the ocean weren't right for fossilization before that, we would have no record of the life that came before.  Of course the more important point is what sort of window of time the record of this "explosion" take place?  Seeing as how we're talking about the oldest known fossils on earth, you have to keep in mind that the resolution of any dating method is going to still be in the millions of years.  (And that's assuming the dating is accurate to less than 1%, which it probably isn't).  The cambrian period itself spanned hundreds of millions of years, and the growth of life where none existed before is relatively fast when conditions are favorable to it.  Also, please do us all a favor and actually read something about the Cambrian Explosion that isn't paraphrased creationist bull****.  Wikipedia would be a good start.

Quote
Originally posted by Stealth
Just because one second, you want a definition of Intelligent Design, and you refute the definitions that are thrown out why... because they're "too simple compared to evolution"?  Yeah that's a great reason.  Intelligent design is simple:  For Christians, it means God created life (i.e. played a large part in the creation/design of life, as per the definition of ID).  now you can't say "well who created God" or "how long has God been around", because some things humans just don't have answers for.  If God does exist, there's no human that can tell how old He is.  Second, you also can't say "well does mutation play a part in ID?" or any of those 'moot points', because that differs according to religion, etc.  just as evolutionists have many different theories, so do IDs.


We attack the definition given because it is not a definition by any scientific principle.  It's untestable, it's incohesive, and it doesn't stand up to prodding of any form.  The points that evolutionists debate are beyond the level of high school biology anyway, which is really the crux of the whole damned argument.  On the other hand, the points that ID supports debate are fundamental to the very concept of ID, which is a very clear indicator that it's not real science.

And what, exactly, does ID mean to non-Christians?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 06:15:14 pm by 570 »
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Offline Kamikaze

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Since it's more or less on topic, I thought I'd throw this link out there.

29+ Evidences for Macroevolution
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

  

Offline Bobboau

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give us an experiment, if ID is a theory, not just an assertions or speculation than it MUST, as per the definition of the word theory in a scientific contect, must be testable. come up with something, it doesn't even have to be practical at this point I just want SOMETHING that could posably test it, hell you don't even have to fully develop an full experiment, just give me some aspect of ID that one could make an experiment from.
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Offline aldo_14

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[q]"... there are many reasons why you might not understand [an explanation of a scientific theory] ... Finally, there is this possibility: after I tell you something, you just can't believe it. You can't accept it. You don't like it. A little screen comes down and you don't listen anymore. I'm going to describe to you how Nature is - and if you don't like it, that's going to get in the way of your understanding it. It's a problem that [scientists] have learned to deal with: They've learned to realize that whether they like a theory or they don't like a theory is not the essential question. Rather, it is whether or not the theory gives predictions that agree with experiment. It is not a question of whether a theory is philosophically delightful, or easy to understand, or perfectly reasonable from the point of view of common sense. [A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd.

I'm going to have fun telling you about this absurdity, because I find it delightful. Please don't turn yourself off because you can't believe Nature is so strange. Just hear me all out, and I hope you'll be as delighted as I am when we're through. "
[/q]
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Offline Kamikaze

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Feynman is my hero. :D
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline Grey Wolf

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Question: Why do we keep having these threads ad nauseam? There's no chance of either side ever being convinced.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline StratComm

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It keeps our debating skills sharp for when someone tries to bring this into our schools :)

EDIT: And I will reiterate that I don't have any issue with ID as a system of beliefs.  It's a incoherent system of beliefs that basically amounts to "science makes the way I read the Bible impossible, so it must be wrong" and really nothing else, but whatever.  If people want to believe that and go about their lives, let them.  It's when it gets pushed on the world as "truth" by being equated with very sound science, and taught to children on that same level of factual truth, that I have major issues with the whole thing.  You don't learn about the parting of the red sea in History class, you shouldn't be taught that God created the world in 7 days in Biology.  Believe what you want to believe.  Go to church.  Don't mascarade as something your not to force it on everyone else.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 05:34:28 pm by 570 »
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf
Question: Why do we keep having these threads ad nauseam? There's no chance of either side ever being convinced.


Because if we don't challenge it, the uneducated person might think the loudest, most irrational person is actually right, y'know?  There's always a worry that the most vocal minority is mistaken for being correct, after all.

If someone yells 'this is a flaw, and he said this', etc, to try and decry, well, anything, it's only fair we should pop up and point out that they're wilfully misleading people and ignoring evidence or, as I've noticed, making up or deliberately misquoting quotes.

The latter in particular pisses me off, especially when the sources are omitted (presumably to make it easier to quote out of context).
« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 05:38:47 pm by 181 »

 

Offline Kamikaze

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Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf
Question: Why do we keep having these threads ad nauseam? There's no chance of either side ever being convinced.


If presented some solid, real, scientific evidence I could be convinced. :p
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline Bobboau

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Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf
Question: Why do we keep having these threads ad nauseam? There's no chance of either side ever being convinced.


Because God wills it.
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Offline BlackDove

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Since you posted the thread, are you God?

I'll take that theory over ID really.

 

Offline Bobboau

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yup
/*smites some people*/

and just for fun

human with gills

although technacly they aren't gills they are the same structures that form into gills in the animals that do have them.
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Offline StratComm

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I ran across this on CNN today.  It's relevant here.

Bird flu 'resistant to main drug'

What's happened is that a strain of this virus, which may or may not have been present at all just a couple of years ago (for the purposes of this debate it really doesn't matter how old the strain is) has become a dominant strain in parts of Asia.  From an evolutionary perspective, this happened because one viral cell gained a resistance to the common drug and multiplied.  When the drug was applied to try to kill the virus, this one survived and went on to infect others.  The cycle repeated itself, and over time the selecting factor (the medicine that was supposed to stop the virus from multiplying) made this strain the most efficient and most likely to survive.  Well survive it did.  If the strain is older, then natural selection (with human influence, intentional or not, as we're still part of that selection process) is being evidenced on a very rapid scale.  If the strain is new, then the whole mutation-leading-to-competitive-edge theory is being proven again.   Now I will make full disclosure on this issue; viral reproduction and evolution is a bit different from any true cell-based life.  For that matter, no one has really decided if viri are actually alive.  But the same principles apply.  We can see natural selection and evolution much more readily in viri and simple bacteria just because they are rediculously simple in terms of their genetic code and overall structure in comparison to any higher-order life, and because their reproduction rate is so fast.

How would ID explain it?  Pathogen evolution is a very real, very observable fact of nature, but I've yet to see an ID proponent even acknowledge that it happens.
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Offline WeatherOp

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma


That's not proof. The whole look around you argument is nonsense. I see nothing that can't be explained by evolution.

Yet again you attack because you can't actually even state the theory of ID.

Fail to do that by tomorrow and I think we're going to have to say that I win.


Ok, Karajorma, do you want proof? Do you really want it, but first of all this is not about who wins the debate.

If you really want proof I sujest you go find it yourself, why you ask? Cause no matter what I post or anyone else posts, it's not gonna do anything for you, your gonna find someway to say you disprove it,and for you to belive anything you've got to see it yourself. So I sujest you go find God, go off by yourself for a little while. If you truly want to find proof, if you really in your heart want to know, belive me, God will find you.

However that is not what you want, you do not want to find God, I don't know maybe your scared of what you will find.Or you don't want to give up your natural selection or you want to be fully in control of you life. So, I Challange you, go find God.:nod: Same goes for all the rest of you.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 07:07:05 pm by 2303 »
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Offline Ford Prefect

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You heard the man, Kara. Go find god. And if it happens to be Aphrodite, for goodness sake, close the door.
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