Author Topic: lets do this thing ONE MORE TIME!  (Read 31291 times)

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Offline Bobboau

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well here we have the principal issue, science isn't about haveing a forgone conclusion and trying to find proof, it's about makeing observations trying to figure out those observeations and testing to see if you are right. going out with the express purpose of finding God assumes that a God exsists and that there is evedence for it without haveing that evedence first. your line of thinking is diametric to science, and includeing it in a science class is just absurd, it'd be like a preist telling you in church to go on aobut town indulgeing in every dark impulse you have, it's just the absolute definition of the polar opposite of what it's all about.

in science you don't go looking to prove yourself right, because no matter what you think is right you will always find something that you can interpet as coroborateing. in science you go out and try to prove yourself wrong.
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Offline WeatherOp

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Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
well here we have the principal issue, science isn't about haveing a forgone conclusion and trying to find proof, it's about makeing observations trying to figure out those observeations and testing to see if you are right. going out with the express purpose of finding God assumes that a God exsists and that there is evedence for it without haveing that evedence first. your line of thinking is diametric to science, and includeing it in a science class is just absurd, it'd be like a preist telling you in church to go on aobut town indulgeing in every dark impulse you have, it's just the absolute definition of the polar opposite of what it's all about.

in science you don't go looking to prove yourself right, because no matter what you think is right you will always find something that you can interpet as coroborateing. in science you go out and try to prove yourself wrong.


Bob, you go find him too. Don't tell me how wrong it is in science and all that stuff, once again if you really want to find proof, go looking for it, like I said before if you really want to know go find Him. You want be disiponted.;)
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Offline StratComm

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And that is the worst possible argument to bring in to the ID debate.  Because you're basically conceding that ID is not a science but instead is a manifestation of a belief in God, and then going on to say that everyone who "finds God" will then have the same belief as you.  If ID were being used in any context besides the teaching of creation in schools, you might have a point.  If you know of anywhere that this isn't the case, please do tell.  Until then, keep your evangalism out of this thread.
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Offline Galemp

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Now that we've stated our case I think we evolutionists should keep ours out, too.

I wish we'd go back to debating the merits of teaching ID in schools vs. not. That's what's new and topical. All this creation vs. evolution stuff has been debated, as you say, 'ad nauseum.'
« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 07:31:37 pm by 510 »
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Offline StratComm

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Quote
Originally posted by Galemp
I wish we'd go back to debating the merits of teaching ID in schools vs. not. That's what's new and topical. All this creation vs. evolution stuff has been debated, as you say, 'ad nauseum.'


WeatherOp has proven, beyond anything that I can do, the exact reason that ID has no merit for being taught in schools.  It is religion hiding behind pseudo-science, nothing more, and by Seperation of Church and State it is not permissable in public schools.

EDIT: Because I don't want to steal the thunder of Bobboau's next post, this is going here.

What might not at least be an absolute lie would be a push to just eliminating origins discussions from public schools altogether.  If you're arguing that evolution is some sort of religion, then the shoe fits for it being unconstitutional.  Of course any scientist will tell you that true science is not a religion, so that's of very limited validity, but at least it addresses the right concerns.  The fact that the ID camp isn't trying to force evolution out right now smacks of a hidden (ok, so not so well hidden) agenda, which really tends to drive people like me up a wall.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 08:06:07 pm by 570 »
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Offline Bobboau

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if I wanted to belive in farries bad enough I'd be able to go out and find evedence of them everywere, if I realy belived in them strong enough I'd feel there preasence. when I was a child I belived in monsters under my bed and in my closet, I could feel them watching me and on occasion I could actualy see them (down to sevral cases of rather frightening halucination on my part, not just seeing a sadow and thinking it was a monster actualy haveing a head or hand come out from under the bed, or seeing glowing eyes move in the dark, I could tell you some stories that would put your hair on end) but I eventualy realised that they always fell short of actualy hurting me and eventualy I realised that they were only as real as I thought they were.

and you know I have tried to find God, unfortunately he doesn't like sceptics, every time I thought I felt something or something happened, I'd stop and think, "is this realy a mirical?" I'd stop and I'd think do I blame god for all the bad things? why should I acredit all the good to him then? like the monsters under my bed I realised God was only as real as I wanted him to be and in my dispaire, I begged God to prove me wrong to do something, anything, that I couldn't explain, or at least to do something extreemly unlikely, for years I sat on my front poarch and said to God, if you are real, make a lightning strike here in front of me, please I just want something I can see, just some trifal showing of your power. in the schools as other kids were throughing rocks at me I asked God to protect me, in the classes I saught Gods help in obtaining wisdom and I don't just mean on tests, ongoing at night and during the days I asked God for help or at least for a sign. eventualy I realised I would get none, and that I was alone. I don't have people beating me and I don't have problems in school any more, God has never showen me a sign. God is a figmant of our culture, and though I have no doubt that you have unshakeable faith, and I realy don't care weather you agree with me, there is one thing you must agree with me upon, God is not within the realm of science, and trying to put him there will result in you not finding him.

if you think science has any place within the schools, if you think our childeren should be exposed to the principals of observation and experimentation as a disipline, if you think that the modern world is better with the food production desiese prevention and cures, the life spans three times what they once were, if you beleive that this is good, then you will keep God out of science, because if God gets into science one of them will be destroied. if however you keep your religon and your science seporate, you can still have your relationship woth God and reep the benifits of science.
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Offline Flipside

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All I'll say is that if ID is truly 'Intelligent Design' and not simply Christianity in a Lab-Coat then you should be teaching this. as well, since after all, they all fall under the umbrella of Intelligent Design, and there are hundreds more like them.

http://www.timelessmyths.com/classical/creation.html
« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 08:20:18 pm by 394 »

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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Indeed, and we can't forget the Hindu trinity, especially since this is a Freespace forum.
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Offline BlackDove

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Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
I could tell you some stories that would put your hair on end


Everyone, gather round the fire, and let chief Bob tell us some SCAAAAAARY STOOOOORIES!

 

Offline Bobboau

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once, I was sleeping on the edge of my bed with my parents, and a monster that looked quite similar to the gohst busters gargoil, but much smaller just sort of came up right in front of me. doesn't sound to bad, but think about it, you are a little kid and this thing just shows up, eyes glowing less than half a foot away from your head, totaly lit properly looking totaly real. I froze for a second it just sort of stayed there stairing at me untill I freaked out and turned twards my mom, when I turned back it was gone.

there was another common monster it was basicly just a set of huge hands that if I ever put my feet on the ground he'd grab me, and presumably do something unpleasent that I didn't want to find out. now that I think about it, the hands were about the size of a Vasudan hand... though they were a bit meatier.

now the realy scary one was this one time were I had this hypothosis, if I was under the bed when the lights whent out, the monsters couldn't be there, and then all I'd have to do was keep the ones in the closet at bay, and the dog was good at that, so, I go under the bed and try sleeping there, it works, first night, no monsters not nothing. next night, same deal, I'm prety hot **** no? keep doing this untill eventualy, one night I'm under there and thinking about it, trying to get to sleep, then I see something at my feet, something glowing, sort of a green glow like glow in the dark toy type things, two circular shapes, two eyes just a bit above my feet, looking right at me. I think: "hmmm, well I guess I wasn't right after all was I. nope not right at all, there is a monster, right next to my foot... crap!" I don't move for a few seconds, looking at it looking at me, and I think: "well it doesn't seem to be atacking me, maybe it's not a monster, it sort of looks like a couple glow in the dark constructs (a toy I had in great abundence) maybe there were a few of them under here and I just didn't noice them untill now, and for some reason they are hovering half a foot in the air" so I bend over to touch them (obviusly a briliant move, lets put our hand on the mouth end of a monster) and just as I'm thinking well it hasn't moved sence I started bending over it's probly nothing, they rushed right at my face, my hand whent right through the middle of them and they went right through my head and out from under the bed into my room and disapeared. I then proceeded to freak out and scream and run to mom's room running into my door then opening it, then running into her door then opening it, and continued to freak out for some time.

the oldest monster I had to worry about as a kid, was this nebulus floating thing that only came out in the dark, funny thing about this is I can still see it, it's a real optical illusion, go into a dark room and look into the darkest corner you can find, there'll be a little tingle of light caused by the receptors in your eye fireing randomly every now and then

and there were a bunch of snake things, holes would form out in the yard and a hord of large snake monsters would come out, I'd have to seal up the room I was in to keep them out, putting towens under doors and locking windows, putting heavy objects over top air vent's ect...

all of these manifested themselves in full blowen halucinations at least once, includeing both sight and sound.
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Offline Shrike

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Stealth, do you understand what a scientific theory is?  Here's some definitions:

Quote
1 - A systematically organized body of knowledge applicable in a relatively wide variety of circumstances, especially a system of assumptions, accepted principles, and rules of procedure devised to analyze, predict, or otherwise explain the nature or behavior of a specified set of phenomena.
2 - Abstract reasoning; speculation.
You seem to be treating evolution as if it's the second definition, which is how theory is often defined in vernacular usage.  But that's 100% wrong.   A scientific theory is the first definition.

The theory of evolution can and has demonstrated the ability to predict and explain the changes that occur to species over time.  ID has no predictive ability whatsoever.  It is not science.  It never will be, unless god is proven to exist.

ID is basically the god-powered version of genetic engineering, which artificially modifies organisms in ways that evolution can or has not done, eg, monkeys with genes for glow-in-the-dark ability that were spliced in from a completely different animal.  This is no evolution, this is manipulation.  Moreover, there's no proof for any actual 'intelligence' in the evolutionary record as opposed to our glow in the dark monkey which has been modified using scientifically tested means by intelligences (us).

Show us the money stealth.  Give us one pro-ID piece of evidence, and lack of evidence does not count as evidence.
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Offline BlackDove

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@ Bob

Seems to me someone exposed you to some horror movies when you were a kid. Neighbour friend of mine had sort of the same fears and nightmares, but that was because his parents were morons.

You're pretty ****ed up though.

The worst I ever feared were spiders and centipedes entering my ears, but then again, that was a justified fear because at any given time, we'd have about 5-10 spiders and centipedes in the apartment that we assuredly knew of (you could see them when they moved from place to place, place I lived at had palm trees outside, so you can imagine the heat and ultimately, the insects and bugs in abundance), and sometimes during the daytime they'd like to crawl all over you (centipedes), used to freak my mother out even though that type were only veggie eaters.

Neways, looks like you have quite an imagination there. Though it does sounds like borderline schizophrenia.

 

Offline Corsair

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Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
The theory of evolution can and has demonstrated the ability to predict and explain the changes that occur to species over time.  ID has no predictive ability whatsoever.  It is not science.  It never will be, unless god is proven to exist.

And that last bit might be a little hard to do, since the main tenent of God is faith, which sort of rules out proveability.
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Offline WeatherOp

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Quote
Originally posted by WeatherOp


Bob, you go find him too. Don't tell me how wrong it is in science and all that stuff, once again if you really want to find proof, go looking for it, like I said before if you really want to know go find Him. You want be disiponted.;)


Bob....;)

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11:And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:

12:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 10:18:44 pm by 2303 »
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Offline StratComm

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Did you even read Bob's post?!?

Quote
Originally posted by Corsair

And that last bit might be a little hard to do, since the main tenent of God is faith, which sort of rules out proveability.


Precisely.  And any relationship with God has to be based purely in faith.  Which is why any true Christian should oppose Intelligent Design, as it is an attempt to force children to accept God on the basis of someone elses words rather than on their own faith.
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Offline Bobboau

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I went looking and was disapointed.

I would rather know a horable truth than a wonderful lie, that's how I've always been. I would love it if the things you say are true, but after looking for it, after wanting it to be true, I have found nothing.
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Offline WeatherOp

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Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
I went looking and was disapointed.

I would rather know a horable truth than a wonderful lie, that's how I've always been. I would love it if the things you say are true, but after looking for it, after wanting it to be true, I have found nothing.


I don't want to be mean or anything, but thats not looking, true looking would be looking from the heart, not trying to call upon Him during trouble. See you cannot see thru the heart like I can, you will not see God working behind the scenes, look deeper, if you really, truly want to find him,, you will find him, I can assure you of that.:nod:

For as the verse said above, you will not find him in the wind, you will not find him in the fire, you will not find him in the quakes, you will find him in that still small voice speaking, then after you find him, then you will hear see him in the wind, then you will see him in the fire, then you will see him in the earthquake, But then you will still hear him in that still small voice.:nod:
« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 10:33:27 pm by 2303 »
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Offline BlackDove

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You scare me.

And not in a good way.

I swear that's what the creepy people who try to sell me religious magazines say when they come to my door.

There's a reason why I don't open the door to them anymore. Okay the first few times was fun and we all had a laugh, but it started taking a turn for the weird after awhile.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 10:33:52 pm by 461 »

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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I'm always fascinated by the assumption that God is male. Why does a supposedly singular deity need a penis anyway? I guess the music of the spheres is man's work.

(I still think Aphrodite is a lot more convenient. ;7)
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Offline StratComm

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I've always been of the stance that "He" and "Him" are not necessarily gender-specific.  Just like "mankind" or "man" in the sense of our race.  Such is how I've always interpreted it with God, when gender is not specified but a singular pronoun is needed, the language defaults to male.  I don't see why God would have or need a gender.  Which is why I find it really annoying when people refer to God as "She", simply because then they ARE specifying a gender.  A big thanks to the Feminists for that one :doubt:
« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 10:44:37 pm by 570 »
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM