Author Topic: Thinking on Shivans...  (Read 8804 times)

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Offline Odd Writings

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Thinking on Shivans...
...other than that they have a spiffy name ( A cat I know for over 7 years is called Shiva), I am wondering a bit.

They have never taken a planet; just nodes. Now what I wonder about is...what if they are a nomadic race? What would their mothership(s) look like? I mean...if it is a ship in which Sathanases can dock, how big would it be?

Could we even damage it? Even if we let the Colossus ram into the thing, would it not just make a small dent?

Next thing: The size of the fleet.

They have thrown away several Sathanas class vessels. What I worry about now is this:
If they can ditch these ships as if they are worth not much, then how many of these things are there?

Would we ever have a chance? Why did they not eliminate the GTVA? They have the firepower; the Sathanas Fleet appeared out of nowhere, and disappeared without a trace. Other than those that have been annihilated by the shockwave and what little we know from the scans we have made.

...any thoughts on this?
>>; I managed to get minuses on kills...that be bad, right?

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: Thinking on Shivans...
Why would a mothership have to be big, rather than just lots of, say, 5km long ships?

 

Offline Odd Writings

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Re: Thinking on Shivans...
Exactly. Which is why I put the "(s)" thingy in there. >>; they could be mere berths for the ships, and have colony ships about too.

But the image of a fleet of humongous ships that make a Sathanas look puny plays more to the imagination, right? however insane and silly the idea is.

>>; I managed to get minuses on kills...that be bad, right?

 

Offline starfox

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Re: Thinking on Shivans...
I'd like to share few thoughts too...
First, does anyone have any idea, what is behind the third knossos portal, and what was the system in the "DIVE, DIVE, DIVE" mission ?
It could be reasonable to assume, that like the first portal, the second and third were also contructed by the ancients, but for what purpose ?
How many of those devices exists in total ?

Some thoughts about the Shivan fighters, are they actually piloted by the shivans or are they merely "extensions" or drones...
Their fighters look very crampy from the outside, frankly I don't get how the shivans can fit in there..

Why did the first portal led to the nebula ? I could be mistaken here, but didn't it lead to the place where the ancients first encountered with the shivans. So, why is there nebula now ? Nebula, that is remant of the supernova....Was that Nova caused by the shivans too, who knows ?

If that is correct, why the Shivans are intentionally creating supernovas, you have seen the Sathanas do their true job. Command speculated that the Shivans were powering up a new kind of weapon, if so, was the system beyond the first portal another example of Shivan handiwork.

Then at the end of FS2, it was said that the destruction of the star could be the bridge between our universe and theirs. If they are originating from other universe, they must have fleet and power beyond description...
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Offline WeatherOp

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Re: Thinking on Shivans...
I'd like to share few thoughts too...
First, does anyone have any idea, what is behind the third knossos portal, and what was the system in the "DIVE, DIVE, DIVE" mission ?
It could be reasonable to assume, that like the first portal, the second and third were also contructed by the ancients, but for what purpose ?
How many of those devices exists in total ?

Maybe the fact that Knossos close jump nodes instead of creating them. Possibly the ancients used it to lock away certain systems, maybe a last ditch effort to save their butts, or hiding something where the shivans couldn't find it.
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Offline Galemp

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Re: Thinking on Shivans...
I'd like to share few thoughts too...
First, does anyone have any idea, what is behind the third knossos portal, and what was the system in the "DIVE, DIVE, DIVE" mission ?
We don't have any clues. The literature says that GTVA archeologists are hoping to find an Ancient map of jump nodes that would tell us.

Quote
It could be reasonable to assume, that like the first portal, the second and third were also contructed by the ancients, but for what purpose ?
How many of those devices exists in total ?
It's theorized that Knossos portals are used to stabilize unstable jump nodes. The Ancients may have been more sensitive to jump node irregularities than the GTVA, or they may have wanted to expand their network artificially after exploring all the stable jump nodes they had. We have no idea how many more portals there are, though The Scroll of Atankharzim is about the discovery of another.

Quote
Some thoughts about the Shivan fighters, are they actually piloted by the shivans or are they merely "extensions" or drones...
Their fighters look very crampy from the outside, frankly I don't get how the shivans can fit in there..
Shivan fighters have been modified to accept Terran pilots, so there must be some sort of cockpit for a living being with instrumentation. It's possible--and this is entirely conjecture--that the Shivans we saw in the Hall Fight were warriors, and there's a seperate 'class' of Shivans with less bulky armor and weaponry for pilots.

Quote
Why did the first portal led to the nebula ? I could be mistaken here, but didn't it lead to the place where the ancients first encountered with the shivans. So, why is there nebula now ? Nebula, that is remant of the supernova....Was that Nova caused by the shivans too, who knows ?
That's what's implied. You can read the entry on the Lupus Nebula in the Wiki for more information about the supernova that caused the nebula.

Quote
If that is correct, why the Shivans are intentionally creating supernovas, you have seen the Sathanas do their true job. Command speculated that the Shivans were powering up a new kind of weapon, if so, was the system beyond the first portal another example of Shivan handiwork.
Then at the end of FS2, it was said that the destruction of the star could be the bridge between our universe and theirs. If they are originating from other universe, they must have fleet and power beyond description...
The ending cutscene is a subject of much speculation, but we only know as much as we can glean from Petrarch's comments. The MindGames campaign has an interesting, if unconventional, take on it.
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Re: Thinking on Shivans...
What if the Shivans AND their ships are "with technics enhanced Organisms"?
What if those ships are liveforms? And the Shivans are some sort of "micro-organism" for them?

Well... At least the Sathanas looks like a huge BUG...

 

Offline achtung

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Re: Thinking on Shivans...
I think the nebula beyond the first knossos was the way in which the shivans entered our dimension.  Since it is theorized that there are countless different dimensions maybe certain stars have some kind of connection with the ones in other dimensions.  This way they can use the stars as "nodes" to other dimensions.  The only catch is that they destroy the connected stars when they travel between dimensions. 

Possibly the lucifer fleet was a scout looking for stars they could use?

Of course my theory leaves alot of holes but it's an idea.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Thinking on Shivans...
Or possibly blowing stars up rips new holes in Subspace, thus allowing the Shivans to move on toward some unknown goal.

Terrans and Ancients could have done nothing more terrible than been in the way ;)

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Thinking on Shivans...
Double post, I know...

Another thought occured to me and I wanted to check something. In the final video, we see lots of Saths clustered around the Star. Some of them jump out. However, they are NOT in a jump node. Now, as far as I can remember, that means it was an in-system jump? If so, where did they go in-system that would be safe from a Supernova? I know Shivans had more control over Subspace the the GTVA did, but even they had to travel through known arrival and exit points?

 

Offline Fenrir

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Of course, that's the mystery. I'm convinced that what they did to the star somehow enabled them to jump, well, somewhere. Somewhere not in the system, that's for sure. The games state that the ability to cross into Subspace is highly influenced by gravity, and obviously a star has an awful lot of that, so it makes sense to me that the Shivans could manipulate Subspace in some manner by messing with the star the way they did.

 

Offline Polpolion

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http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,22279.0.html

This might awnser most your questions.
WARNING: VERY LONG!!!

 

Offline Galemp

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I think they must have jumped somewhere else; they might have created an entirely new node. Look how their warp portals are green  instead of blue like normal, or teal like the Knossos.

The Shivans origins and motives are best explained in the first game's Ancients monologues. They exist to wipe out species that have grown too powerful and jeapordize the existance of other, more primitive species, to give all forms of life an equal chance. The Ancients and the Terrans (and probably the Vasudans) were all xenocidal, either intentionally or unintentionally, during their colonizations.

Their original origins are totally unknown, but they've been around so long (tens of thousands of years) there's probably nothing but myth and legend left--if the Shivans ever did have a creator or a home planet it's long been forgotten even by them. They became what they are so long ago that it's like they've never known anything else.
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Offline Flipside

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It doesn't ;) As I stated in another thread, that's one persons take on the idea, it's a good piece of writing, but to my mind, it applies too many human characteristics to Shivans ;)

 

Offline knn

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I'd like to share few thoughts too...
First, does anyone have any idea, what is behind the third knossos portal, and what was the system in the "DIVE, DIVE, DIVE" mission ?
We don't have any clues. The literature says that GTVA archeologists are hoping to find an Ancient map of jump nodes that would tell us.

Quote
It could be reasonable to assume, that like the first portal, the second and third were also constructed by the ancients, but for what purpose ?
How many of those devices exists in total ?
It's theorized that Knossos portals are used to stabilize unstable jump nodes. The Ancients may have been more sensitive to jump node irregularities than the GTVA, or they may have wanted to expand their network artificially after exploring all the stable jump nodes they had. We have no idea how many more portals there are, though The Scroll of Atankharzim is about the discovery of another.

*snip*

But maybe they can also block them. FS2 states that the first Knossos leads to a place where the ancients made first contact with the shivans. Maybe they closed the portal to stop the shivans. That's why the Trinity had to activate it, unlike the second one, which seems to be active already (Sathanas entering system, SOC briefing doesn't mention that the 2nd portal had to be activated).
The nebula beyond the portal may as well be a natural nebula, not one caused by the shivans, or one caused by the shivans ages before the ancients, because another race was a threat to them as the GTVA in FS2. Let's accept for a moment that the shivans returned home, possibly to bring reinforcements, by blowing up the Capella star, as proposed in the shivan manifesto (I know, it's not canon, but...). That's quite a desperate move, indicating that the GTVA WAS a threat to them (@ Flipside: they were not afraid, and the shivan manifesto explains this as well). The ancients, on the other hand, were not, the shivans came, they closed a Knossos and left the system. Then the shivans came again, entering normal space somewhere else, circumventing the locked Knossos, and the Ancients retreated etc.. Finally the Shivans got to their homeworld. (this is what the ancient cutscenes suggest)
The point is that if the nebula existed before the ancients, then the gravity of the supernova remnant in the middle wouldn't have been enough to create a stable subspace portal. But the ancients wanted to get there (possibly to mine and expand further), and so they built the first and second Knossos.
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Offline knn

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It doesn't ;) As I stated in another thread, that's one persons take on the idea, it's a good piece of writing, but to my mind, it applies too many human characteristics to Shivans ;)

You mentioned fear in the other thread, but the manifesto doesn't apply fear to Shivans.

Quote
Firstly, if we accept that the Shivans operate with a hive mentality (something we will accept as true for the purposes of the essay), then we need not necessarily conclude that their reaction at Capella was one of "fear", per se. It would be in error to confuse the notion of "fear" with that of "self-preservation".
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Offline Spicious

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I think they must have jumped somewhere else; they might have created an entirely new node. Look how their warp portals are green  instead of blue like normal, or teal like the Knossos.
The Shivans could have jumped to the Gamma Draconis node. Consider this, would the supernova really envelop the whole Capella system in a few minutes?
When the Shivans do jump out in the cutscene, the warp portals are the standard blue.

 

Offline Flipside

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Errr... Knn...

Quote
To understand the solution, we must observe the problem from the Shivan standpoint.  Throughout their incursion, the Shivans gained very little ground against the GTVA.  The furthest-encroaching Shivan vessel was the original Sathanas, and it was destroyed in Capella--merely one jump from Gamma Draconis--by the GTVA Colossus.  It is likely that the Shivans, in all their destructive fury, had never previously lost a vessel of that magnitude to an enemy.  Since they were never able to advance any further than Capella (with the exception of a Shivan force that attacked the Vega-Capella node in the endgame), the Shivans could not know for certain just how many Colossus-class vessels the GTVA had in their ranks.  For all they knew, a fleet of the mammoth vessels could have been waiting deep within GTVA territory, waiting to spring a trap on the advancing Shivan fleet.  Faced with such uncertain opposition, the Shivans took the only course of action open to them:

They ran away.  The Shivans were not attacking the GTVA, but retreating from it.

 

Offline Goober5000

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I think they must have jumped somewhere else; they might have created an entirely new node. Look how their warp portals are green instead of blue like normal, or teal like the Knossos.

The Shivans could have jumped to the Gamma Draconis node. Consider this, would the supernova really envelop the whole Capella system in a few minutes?

When the Shivans do jump out in the cutscene, the warp portals are the standard blue.

I was just going to say this.  Supernova shockwaves travel slower than the speed of light, while subspace jumps are faster than the speed of light.  If the Gamma Draconis node is a significant distance (even 1 AU is enough) away from the sun, the Shivans would have sufficient time to jump to the GD node, recharge their drives, and jump out.

 

Offline knn

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I think they must have jumped somewhere else; they might have created an entirely new node. Look how their warp portals are green  instead of blue like normal, or teal like the Knossos.
The Shivans could have jumped to the Gamma Draconis node. Consider this, would the supernova really envelop the whole Capella system in a few minutes?

Of course not, but this is a game. The terrans&vasudans didn't jump out, the rest of the shivan fleet fighting them didn't jump out. In the cutscene, the supernova destroys everything really fast. However, the player does have enough time to jump out, so this is a good point

Errr... Knn...
*snip*

Quote
If there is any dominant principle in the animal kingdom, it is to stay alive. This is commonly observed in the "fight or flight" principle, which even humans possess; we either confront an enemy, or run away so that we might live to fight another day. This principle is more complex when applied to a hive society, as generally, there are no individuals; all drones or workers strive for the good of the colony, and may very well be willing to sacrifice their own lives for the sake of that goal. However, this should not lead us to conclude that mass suicide is acceptable by default; if all the drones in a hive society are killed, who will be left to support the hive itself? In Robert Heinlein's classic Starship Troopers, a group of the grotesque "Bugs" (also called Arachnids, the book's main "bad guys") have surrounded a space marine who is shielding himself behind a bulbous "brain bug" which serves as the controlling influence for the hive's workers. The "warrior" Bugs screech in protest and frustration, unable to attack the hiding marine; if they do, they risk killing the brain bug itself, destroying the hive hierarchy and silencing the source of their own commands. In effect, the Bugs would be comitting suicide.

For that reason, you Shivan fans out there should not think of the Shivans as being "afraid" of the GTVA. Rather, you should think of them as regrouping and marshalling their forces instead of risking complete decimation at the hands of a Colossus fleet. They are merely exercising good judgment in the face of the unknown. To paraphrase Heinlein himself, any race that possesses enough skill to construct spacecraft is not stupid.
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