Author Topic: Thinking on Shivans...  (Read 13194 times)

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Offline Charismatic

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Well, the shivans, if they took a minute to think about it, would know that we would not put a  mesa bomb in the GD node. We know if detonated inside a node, it will collapse, and we dont like to do that. It only happened twice, and the second time was intentional. Were pussys. We had lots of ppl in the GD system, we would not cut them off from us.

Thinking about it.. i think what would be a great improvement would be, the creation of a "Node Friendly" meson bomb- one allowing us to mine our nodes and detonate them w\o them colapsing. Command would use these all the time (cowards..)
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Offline Fenrir

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Plus, if you don't have control of the jump node, you can't ensure that someone hasn't moved a large asteroid or bomb right next to the jump node, which I imagine could cause problems if you jumped in right next to it.

That's a good point. I'll bet Bosch only jumped in that close to the node because he had spies aboard the Colossus (the ones that jammed its weapons) and might have been able to rely on them to give him coordinates that wouldn't result in him slamming into the Colossus or anything else upon arrival. I doubt they jump in close to nodes normally because you can't tell who else is close to one.

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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Well, the shivans, if they took a minute to think about it, would know that we would not put a  mesa bomb in the GD node. We know if detonated inside a node, it will collapse, and we dont like to do that. It only happened twice, and the second time was intentional. Were pussys. We had lots of ppl in the GD system, we would not cut them off from us.

Thinking about it.. i think what would be a great improvement would be, the creation of a "Node Friendly" meson bomb- one allowing us to mine our nodes and detonate them w\o them colapsing. Command would use these all the time (cowards..)


There's no evidence that a meson bomb detonation in normalspace has any effect on subspace. Except for the destruction of the Knossos, which didn't work all that well, so... :p
-C

 

Offline Mongoose

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Through the Gamma Draconis node! I see no reason we need to say they had to use anything other than the same GD node that they and the GTVA had been using.

Earth for instance is 8.3 minutes from the sun at lightspeed. If the GD node was a similar distance from Capella then that gives the Shivans ample time to get the Saths to the node and exit the system. The only hiccup might be if the lead sath in the queue broke down and they all had to go round it at the Saths rather poor top speed :D

Hell if you're feeling really geeky you can do some calculations based on the size of Capalla and its size in Their Finest Hour. No one would take you remotely seriously if you did but it would be canon evidence :D
 I'd be willing to bet though that given the large size of Capella and it's rather small appearance in the mission that the GD node appears in that the node is actually further away than that.
I'll never buy the argument that the Shivans merely jumped to the GD node and then jumped to the nebula immediately afterwards.  It just kills all the mysticism in the final cutscene. :p I'll always stand by the suspicion that Admiral Petrarch stated in his final monologue, that the collapse of the Capella star somehow enabled the Shivans to bridge a connection of much greater magnitude than a normal intersystem jump node.  I think that it fits, given the behavior of the Sathanes after they journeyed into Capella. I don't by any means buy the Manifesto's argument that the GTVA was somehow able to scare the Shivans into retreat; not only does that not fit with any of their previous actions, it completely destroys the character that :v: managed to create over two games. The Sathanes that entered Capella never showed even a passing interest in the GTVA forces in-system; only one was deployed elsewhere, to finish off the Colossus, and that took all of 30 seconds or so.  The fact that all of them immediately set course toward Capella means to me that that's all they wanted in the first place.  The Shivans had to know that we were going to collapse the nodes leading into Capella; as aldo said in another thread, they put up only token resistance, just a few wings of bombers, toward the Bastion, meaning that they didn't particularly care about it. 

In my mind, the Shivans needed Capella to accomplish something; they didn't even particularly care that we were in the system. The way in which they jumped out is also somewhat suggestive.  A few of the ships appear to continue whatever subspace disturbance they started, while the rest jump out, all of them pointed in the direction of the star.  Those few remaining Sathanes then appear to power down, to "die."  I've always liked the idea that those Sathanes were holding the portal open long enough for the rest to get through.  Who's to say that they hadn't been mostly evacuated beforehand, or that their inhabitants weren't important to the rest of the Shivan fleet?  In that case, their loss would be seen as inconsequential when compared with whatever potential gain the rest of the fleet obtained.  We know that the gravity wells created by stars are inherently important to the structure of  subspace; intrasystem jumps can only take place within them, and intersystem jumps are only made possible at certain points (presumably) dictated by them.  Given that fact, and knowing that the Sathanes were sending out some sort of subspace disturbance, I think it's pretty safe to assume that they were trying to use Capella to do something pretty major related to subspace.  Just before it went supernova, the star fundamentally changed, not only in its color but seemingly somehow in its overall structure.  From what we know about subspace, I don't think it's a stretch to assume that a change like that would have some pretty crazy effects.  Maybe the Shivans originated from another galaxy; hell, maybe they're from some sort of realm that we can't even perceive.  I don't know.  But I do think that, whatever the Shivans did with Capella, it was far more complex than simply using it as a systemwide nuke.

 

Offline karajorma

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Who said they ran? I'm just saying that assuming that they had to take some other route out of Capella other than the GD node is rather silly. Maybe they did, maybe they made a new node maybe they used multiple routes out.

I'm increasing the mystery by saying they left via the GD node because the question obviously becomes "What the **** were they doing in Capella then?" Why not blow up GD instead. Why try to prevent the terrans from leaving the system?

Saying that they were doing it to make a gate somewhere kills much more mystery. You've answered the biggest question in FS2 and left behind a much less interesting one.
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Offline aldo_14

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Odd thought I just had.

The Shivans do have limited resources, and we have indirect proof.

Consider: they have 80+ Sathanas juggernauts. Yet one for one, Shivan fightercraft tend to be inferior in terms of performance and armament when compared to GTVA. As I have observed before, in the race to build the better gun, the better reactor to power it, the better frame to mount them on, and the better engine to get that frame moving, the GTVA appears to be winning at the fighter level. Also when one considers Shivan destroyers in the main campaign...the same names keep popping up. It's like they don't have too many of them. There is evidence that larger ships were slighted somewhat too. The Ravana isn't a vastly superior design compared to the Demon; the Rakshasa is in the end less effective then the Lilth; the Moloch has trouble with a Deimos or Sobek.

Which leads to the possiblity that those 80+ Sathanas juggernauts may represent the major investment of time, resources, and technology by the Shivans, to the point where developmental work on and production of other ships suffered.

Thoughts; we don't know the exact purpose of the Sathanas, so we can't compare it to any GTVA vessel in 'real' terms.  We can't even assume that the tbl entries are a reliable guide in that sense; after all, there's no 'bendy-arms subspace weapon' entry.  In terms of fighters, IIRC the very first mission the Mara is encountered, your wingman makes a statement along the lines of 'I've never seen anything so fast'.  The problem is it'd be impossible to give Shivans the technological edge in fighters that they are (possibly, probably?) suppossed to have, as it would make the game a pain in the arse to play.  Even then, a vis-a-vis comparison would have to assume both fleets place the same importance and emphasis upon fighter & bomber development and deployment.  The Rakshasa IIRC has a fighterbay, which places it in a different league to a Fenris or Cain; even 4 fighters is a significant tactical advantage and probably drain upon (ship level) resources.  The Ravana, although it doesn't show it so much in mission, is described as tearing the **** out of a dedicated GTVA taskforce before the player arrives to take it down.  Albeit, again, we don't know Shivan tactics and it may be that the Ravanas weakness in terms of anti-capship weapons is counteracted by greater fighter capacity, or it may take an escort type role to protect other ships from attack.

Of course, there's always the possibility that 'real' Shivan tech is of the same relationship to the FS2 fleet as the FS2 tech was to the Shivan FS1 tech.....nor do we know the age of those FS1/FS2 fleets.  Plus it's a given there would be other Shivan ships; there'd have to be for any FS3 as part of the rule of thumb for sequels.

But it's not proof of resource demands, I'd say.  Supporting evidence for that possibility, maybe.

 
I'm going to plop some arugments down for the "Shivans don't run" camp:

-Fact is, 1 Sathanas was kicking all allied ass. It busted through the entire expeditionary force the GTVA had set up in the nebula tore through the gamma draconis system, and entered Capella. The Colossus was only able to destroy the ship after its beam weaponry was disabled (the Sathanas destroys the Colossus even with only 2 of its primary weapons intact).

Alright, The Alliance didn't know about the Juggernaught, all is fair. Now why didn't they spearhead their second campaign in the Nebula with the Colossus if they supposedly had a fleet of them? Because they only had one and they weren't about to send it out looking for Shivans. It becomes pretty obvious that the shivans know this too when the second Sathanis vaporizes the Psamtek and starts chugging it to the Capella system (would you run into enemy territory if they had a fleet of colossi?).

This is further supported by the Shivans dedicating a whole 1 Juggernaut to waste the Colossus in about 30 seconds and leave. If anything I would say the Shivans were practically SPITTING on the GTVA (you got a big ship? SO WHAT!) although I'm sure it was more in line with their "destroy everything" ethos than it was meant as a personal insult.

Although the Alliance is much more advanced than it was in the great war, its capital ships are still severely lacking in terms of reactor output, offensive and defenseive capability, and the shivans seem to know this, too. When a Moloch class corvette is beating up the flagship of the Capellan fleet, you know you still have some catching up to do.

To comment on the limited resources:

All resources are limited, it just depends on the scale at which to judge. I do, however, believe that Shivan forces outnumber Alliance forces by some Obscene ratio. They have been fighting interstellar battles since before the Anceint's empire, and only the Lucifer has proven to be invulnerable. Therefore it is safe to assume that even if the Shivans started with a fleet so massive that even their inability to reproduce ships leaves them with a number dwarfing the GTVA fleet.

If their numbers to tend toward the extreme, then the lack of incredibly sophisticated fighters might be a by prodcut of their numbers. Fighters are much more finicky than their larger space fareing counterparts and require a disproportionate amount of maintanence for their size. It might make sense that the Shivans opted to have a lower grade of fighters for something that was much more sturdy, something they didn't have to waste an innordinate ammount of time repairing and maintaining.

If the Shivans really are a hive mind, then efficiency, not pilot safety, would probably be their top priority.


 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Through the Gamma Draconis node! I see no reason we need to say they had to use anything other than the same GD node that they and the GTVA had been using.

I would point out that nodes are, apparently, not large enough to allow more then one Sathanas to enter at a time, and there was apparently not enough time between warping away from the star and the supernova to allow many to actually get out via that node, even if they arrived right on top of it. Maybe 10 at most could have escaped by that route, but that's being very generous.
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Offline WMCoolmon

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The Shivans' behavior seems pretty consistent with having a job to do, and not really caring much about the GTVA except to keep them away from the Sathanii. Although the Shivans could've attacked in one fell swoop, they attack in staggered amounts...granted you could just say that this is to make the missions playable and last longer, but even until the end, Shivan forces are keeping the GTVA forces occupied. The only ship that this doesn't seem to be true for is the Colossus - the Shivans seem to have sent their second-largest ship insystem to take it out, but since that failed, sent one of the vital Sathanas vessels to finish it off.

Basically, the Shivans forced the GTVA to spread their forces out at three places in the system for as long as possible, when they could've combined the forces seen in the second-to-last and last levels to wipe out the Bastion, and then wipe out the convoy. Even the way that the shivans lure you away from the node in the last mission fits with the theory of them stalling you (and mischievous game designers, yes).

Anyway, I'll put forth the theory that the Shivans attempt to preserve the galaxy by shaping it gravitationally. Destroying Capella would've converted a lot of mass into energy, as well as spreading it out. Alone, it might not be much, but combined with precise detonations of other stars, possibly even the formation of a black hole, maybe they could extend the life of the Galaxy.

Or essentially - the Shivans seed the galaxy with small combat groups, ie the Lucifer. These groups are tasked with eliminating any kind of threat to the 'Constructor' fleet, ie the Sathanases.

Obviously, the Lucifer failed.

Then Bosch activated the portals, unwittingly giving the Shivans a method to get to Capella. Bosch is also able to communicate with the Shivans, and probably mentions the destruction of the Lucifer. Altogether, very interesting to the Shivans, so they take him. Because the Lucifer fleet has been destroyed, the Shivans send in a single Sathanas and some escorts. Since these are part of the main fleet, they're better armed (with fancy new beams) than the Lucifer, but are mostly meant for defending the Sathanas and do not have the high-tech shielding systems of the Lucifer.

Lacking the same kind of tactical and strategical forte of the Lucifer fleet, the Sathanas is quickly destroyed. But the Shivans have figured that the original Sathanas would've mopped up the GTVA by now, so the rest of the Constructor fleet is on the way.

From then on, they basically fight off the GTVA fleet while the Capella sun is destroyed. Interesting about the intro is that the Sathanii seem to deal with the explosion at close range VERY well. I wouldn't be surprised if they could survive by jumping to the very edge of the system.

I doubt that's what :V: had in mind, but that's the best uncommon theory I've cooked up.
-C

 

Offline karajorma

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Through the Gamma Draconis node! I see no reason we need to say they had to use anything other than the same GD node that they and the GTVA had been using.

I would point out that nodes are, apparently, not large enough to allow more then one Sathanas to enter at a time, and there was apparently not enough time between warping away from the star and the supernova to allow many to actually get out via that node, even if they arrived right on top of it. Maybe 10 at most could have escaped by that route, but that's being very generous.

I would point out that 8.3 minutes is simply an example. If the GD node is the same distance as Saturn the figure is closer to 80 minutes. If the node is as far away from GD as Pluto is from Sol they could have thown a barbecue, had a few drinks and still got everyone through the node.
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Offline copiae

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A while ago, i posted on this forum with a possible explanation for the actions in Freespace 2 (FS2). In this post, i claimed that Bosch is the key to unravelling the story of FS2 and of Shivan nature. I've changed my mind on quite a few things i wrote there (others are constant), so i'll be revising my opinions, and posting them here.
 


Shivan Nature

During my replay of FS2, i kept an eye out for any story hints left about the Shivans, and after i finished FS2 again, i poked around a bit further (i read the reference bible and transcripts of cutscenes). Suddenly, something clicked, and a huge chunk of the FS story started making a lot more sense. Volition once hinted that the Shivans were a “symptom of a much bigger problem”. Like others, i took this problem as subspace travel somehow damaging space. Story-wise, it makes sense: The Shivans decimated the Ancients, who were extensive users of subspace, and they came for the Terrans and Vasudans during the Terran-Vasudan War, a period in which subspace travel would have been hieghtened. Yet, there was something... dissatisfying with that explanation. For starters, Shivans use subspace extensively (it can be argued that they do it differently, however the GTVA has captured and studied several Shivan vessels, and i don't think there was any mention of any significantly differing subspace technology). They also seem quite happy to use dodgy subspace nodes, and finally, if they were keen on stopping species from racking up those subspace frequent-flier miles, why not just stick a Sathanas in every system to blow any infant subspace-travelling race to hell?

So, if not subspace travel[1], then what? There is a simpler explanation, but before i get to it, consider the following quotes, all taken from FS1/FS2 cutscene transcripts (emphasis mine):

“Now we know our crime was sin.”

“We know our fate. We are being eliminated. When we travelled subspace, the Cosmic Destroyers took note. When we conquered and colonized in galaxies where we had no place, the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom.”

“I believe it is only the destroyers who are killed. The Shivans are the Great Destroyers, but they are also the Great Preservers. That is why, when we moved into space, there was no one powerful enough to kill us.  Long had we been the destroyer. Our turn had nearly come.”


What if the 'bigger problem' was that of interstellar war? “Only the Destroyers are killed”. Perhaps the Shivans were sensitive towards war-hungry races, and were responsible for sanitising these races before they got out of hand: kinda like a universal immune system, or acting as the 'Great Preservers' of universal balance. However, there is one thing that does not sit well with this theory: the change in Shivan behaviour between the Ancients and the Great War... With the Ancients, the Shivans started at the edge of known space, and systematically wiped the Ancients out, or so the Ancients monologue claims. In the Great War, the Shivans started at Ross 128, seemingly made a beeline for Vasuda , doubled back and headed for Sol. Maybe this was a strategic decision as Vasuda  / Sol were the centres of production, but nevertheless... Also, its possible that the game designers intentionally did this due to external considerations (budget, deadlines, etc), as Ancient-style behaviour of the Shivans would have taken many more missions before the Lucifer reached the Sol node.



Also the first Shivan encounters in FS2 are a bit on the iffy side wrt to this theory, but i'll explore them later. For now, I'm interested if anyone agrees / disagrees with my opinion on the Shivans (Galemp already posted something similiar to this). In the coming days, i'll be posting up an examination of the Shivans and a profile of Aken Bosch,  and i'll take another stab at uncovering the full story of FS2 in this context.




[1] As far as i can tell, there's only really one quote snippet that supports the subspace theory:

“The Ancients died eight thousand years ago as humanity emerged from its Neolithic infancy. They believed their voyage across the sea of stars woke the dragon that slept beneath the waves: that the Shivans were birthed from the flux of subspace and their destruction was the revenge of an angry cosmos.”

Personally, i believe this quote was simply Bosch speaking figuratively, as he has a tendency of doing. As noted above, in wars, subspace usage increases (thus the 'birthed from the flux of subspace'), and the 'dragon that slept' was the Shivans. More on this quote in a later post.



 

Offline karajorma

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This is a fairly standard explaination for the Shivan actions. Nothing particularly new about it. I find it better than the preserving subspace argument but it still strikes me as somewhat unsatisfying because it doesn't explain why the Shivans blew up Capella.
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Offline starfox

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We've known that an explosion of sufficient magnitude in certain points (jump nodes) has the effect on subspace (sealing of the node).
What if the destruction of the star some other unknown effect the Shivans were after, maybe the Supernova was really the key, unlocking a way home...

As Petrach said:
"Maybe they are exciles like we are, searching for a way back home. Destruction of the star may be bridge between our universe and theirs."





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Well, there is another more obvious motive that I'm a bit surprised not to have seen posted already.

Capella is only about 42 light-years from Earth.  Supernovas create essentially two shockwaves.  There's the initial front of hard radiation, then there is the physical blast front.  That second one won't get terribly far, but the first... that one will keep going.  It won't stop at the nodes.  It won't stop at the edge of the star system.  It will keep on going.  It will plow like a scythe right through the entire GTVA.

See, our sun is relatively benign.  Most stars seem to have periods of intense solar flares.  They kick of huge bursts of X-rays that may not kill all life on a planet outright, but it certainly cannot survive there unprotected for long.  A supernova 42 light-years away may as well be in our backyard.  The visible light won't be such a big deal, but the hard radiation will almost certainly sterilize every planet in the area.  Even if the blast is smaller than usual because it was "forced" to go nova and didn't do so "naturally," even if the resulting blast doesn't do it for systems as far away as Sol, there are an awful lot of star systems right next door.

It may take several years for the hammer to fall, but the Shivans effectively ended the war there and then.  They won.

-Peri
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Offline WMCoolmon

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Freespace 3
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Think carefully about what you're saying, perihelion. You've contradicted yourself at least once.

You're also making some unreasonable assumptions on the power and size of the Capella supernova. It was not, for the one thing, powerful enough to destroy any planetary bodies in the Capella system. Go watch End Part 1 again.
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Offline Goober5000

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It was not, for the one thing, powerful enough to destroy any planetary bodies in the Capella system. Go watch End Part 1 again.

Eh?  It really looked like those planets got disintegrated there.

 

Offline BlackDove

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Actually it goes around them, not having enough force to take them out in a blow, but I'm sure the planets cooked to disintegration after an hour or two.

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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The same goes for the Sathanses that got left behind.
-C

 

Offline Flipside

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The things about an expanding bubble is that the surface area increases massively. Remember, after 42 years, the amount of material that would reach other stars is going to be about 0.000000001% of the surface of that expanding sphere, you might get radio static etc, and bit more solar activity, but precious little else. The rest of the volume that hasn't been dragged into gravity wells etc will be so massively dispersed it would not be threat.