Author Topic: space combat sim games or lack therof  (Read 4269 times)

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Offline Turnsky

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space combat sim games or lack therof
--- begin rant---

y'know what i miss?.. games with a certain "magic" to them, i mean, after a time, you can pick them up, and they're still fun to play over and over again, sorta like starlancer, despite its flaws, it remains a relatively fun game to play for an hour or two,
i miss space combat games, really, with a good story, etc. sure there's X3, but that's more of a trading engine, than a combat sim.
same with freespace. i mean, you can talk about "there should be an fs3, or a starlancer 2, or a freelancer 2, yadda yadda yadda yadda" until doomsday, it's not gonna make the game in question magically appear onfront of you.

what there needs to be is a competant game, that will revive this old genre of games, and not some overly difficult, console-based rehash of something that we all have seen before, and include all the modding support imaginable to keep the game and genre alive for some time to come
generally, i'm under the impression that we might see a possible revival after this WW2 game fad dies down to a managable level. because it's getting to that point of "yet another WW2 game is being released soon, whoop-de-freaking-do".
i suppose somebody will pick up the rather dead wingcommander francise, and make (or remake, who knows) another game with that name.. why?.. it's the name, freespace may be also a target, but less so, as Freespace is one of those titles that slipped below the radar due to poor marketing, independance war, the same.

i guess what it all boils down to is: "we might see a space sim but it might be a remake"
--- end rant---

in lighter news, i stumbled on this in lancersreactor the other day, and it might do the trick, might not, proof is in the play, as it were.
Dark Star one

i'll let you guys decide whether it's crap or not, but since it's combat-centric, there may be hope yet.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: space combat sim games or lack therof
i pretty much have to agree. i was putting much hope into elite 4 but it seems to have become vaporware. theese days every game seems like old gameplay with new graphics. fps games havent really changed much sence doom. theres supposidly a new 6dof game comming out but its pretty much the same as the previous ones. as far as space sims go id like to get some older games that i missed out on. starlancer for example, the iwar games, some of the wing commander series. i found a copy of the mw4 compilation in a bargin bin for hella cheap. that was cool but i see the games shelf getting less and less intresting as time goes on. it just seems every idea has been overplayed to death and noone wants to put a huge budjet down on a game that could potentially be original.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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Offline Annorax

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Re: space combat sim games or lack therof
What we truly need is some absurdly rich Powerball winner or poker player to go to Interplay and get the rights to the Freespace series from them. If I knew how to win at poker (which I've apparently forgotten lately), I'd go and make them a serious offer. But all I know how to to is lose to idiots with inside straight draws....

 

Offline Turnsky

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Re: space combat sim games or lack therof
What we truly need is some absurdly rich Powerball winner or poker player to go to Interplay and get the rights to the Freespace series from them. If I knew how to win at poker (which I've apparently forgotten lately), I'd go and make them a serious offer. But all I know how to to is lose to idiots with inside straight draws....

that's a long shot at best,  i think, our best hope (if you can call it that) is that onna the big publishing companies (microsoft game studios in particular) realise that there's still money to be made in the PC gaming market.

mind you, that's just as long of a shot, as it were.. our real best hope, would be the fans themselves, and indie development teams that up and release a true sleeper hit.
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Offline Fineus

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Re: space combat sim games or lack therof
It seems like games have been caught playing the scale game lately, where it doesn't matter what new features you have - but you have to have everything bigger and more impressive than before. That's particularly possible with Space sims given that you have a virtually infinite amount of space to play around with - but it's making it work that's the key.

FreeSpace is of course suitable for a third game... but it probably won't happen. I-War 2 was great but I'm not sure there's anywhere for the game to really "go" from this point... although a Firefly total conversion would be quite nice to see. FreeLancer shouldn't be touched again with a seven foot barge pole - it was a great concept that was executed terribly. Wing Commander (as a franchise) is as dead as FreeSpace seems to be... although to be honest I don't have much of a problem with that as the mission formula (by the time Secret Ops came around) seemed very re-hashed.

All in all, I'd say a new player needs to enter the arena and show what really is possible... but perhaps it would be best to focus on one particular style of play rather than trying to encorporate them all and doing a poor job of it. If you're going to make a trading game... make it huge, easy to get into but with large levels of depth... if you're going to make a fighter sim in space then make it grand, loud and unashamed of what it is. Mixing them both to provide a watered down experience doesn't seem to work.. at least nobody has the formula right yet.

 

Offline starfox

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Re: space combat sim games or lack therof
Anybody remember Tachyon: The Fringe ?
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Offline Turnsky

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Re: space combat sim games or lack therof
It seems like games have been caught playing the scale game lately, where it doesn't matter what new features you have - but you have to have everything bigger and more impressive than before. That's particularly possible with Space sims given that you have a virtually infinite amount of space to play around with - but it's making it work that's the key.

as the former head gaoler of the tower of london used to say: "it's all in the execution"

i did say space combat, not some wierd chimera of concepts and ideas. trading/combat/exploration/rpg/yadda/yadda

and yes, the next space sim would need to blow all other concepts completely out of the water, and beyond orbit if it wants to reach that bar and raise it. there's a lot of universes that have been created at some point or another, so there's a lot of life left in 'em, freespace for example, we've seen what?.. a scant 2 dozen plus star systems out of the countless billions that are in this galaxy alone?
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Re: space combat sim games or lack therof
I'd love to see a continuation of the Independence War series, and I think there's a lot of room for it to grow...  But it won't ever happen.  Particle Systems is beyond dead, and the space sim scene is nearly so healthy.

I find something really attractive about the larger ship gameplay.  At this point, I'm not as interested in a small fighter so much as captaining a corvette.  I-War did a decent job, but they missed a lot of things that would make the experience more immersive, rich and rewarding.  They were just hitting the tip of the iceberg, IMO.

I've been putting a lot of thought into precisely what I want from a space sim recently, and have scribbled down some design-doc notes.  Here's the dream list:

Steamlined and Intuitive User Interface – Every part of the ship is managed by a sim crewmember, leaving the player free to make command decisions.  Should they desire to, the direct control of any system is just a keypress away.

Multiple Styles of Play – Players are free to explore a variety of different professions including: Pirate, Law Enforcement, Trader, Miner, Explorer, Passenger Transport and more.

Realistic Physics – Ships move through space "realistically".  The game engine simulates linear and angular momentum, inertia and rotational moment of inertia, as well as the gravitational attraction of planetary bodies.

Simulated Ship Components – Unlike other space games where a ship's parts are props with “hit-points”, ship components interact with one another, and each have distinct quirks and characteristics.  Damage to one component can have unexpected and interesting results throughout the vessel.  As the game progresses, players are able to upgrade their ships with new components, and can eventually purchase new ships or construct unique vessels from the frame up.

Interactive Personnel – The player doesn't run his ship alone.  The ship is crewed by “sims”, that have unique personalities and skills that change throughout the game.  The crew not only adds personality to the game, but also affects the ship's performance.  The game experience is deeply affected by the player's ability to manage his crew.

True Sandbox Gameplay – Many games which advertise “sandbox gameplay” set the player loose in a semi-interactive playground which the player can't actually change in any lasting way.  In my dream game, the player exists in a constantly evolving game world that reacts to his actions (*sigh* it's nice to dream).

Unprecedented Freedom – Players are not only free to roam the game universe as they please, they are also free to explore the interior of their ship in first person, and can also stroll around space stations and starports (at least a little).  The players is no longer trapped in the cockpit.

Looking back through it, most of these features sound like the realm of MMO's (I hear good things about Eve)...  But I'm honestly not much interested in the MMO world.  I'd much prefer a well developed single-player game...  The ElderScrolls of the space sim genre.  Massively single-player, as I like to joke.

Of course, it also ends up sounding more than a little like BC3000(etc)... Ugh.  Ugggghhhhh.

Anyway, until I become independently wealthy, this will have to remain a dream.  *shrug*

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: space combat sim games or lack therof
i think as far as trading games go, elite 2/first encounters, were about as immersive as you could get. the tech heirarchy was much higher than what you find in freelancer.  if made modern they would be awesome. hitting a dot traveling at several thousant kph speed difference from you, it apears as a pixel on your screen for like a milisecond and you have to hit it with your laser. it would be an easyer hit if you could see the ship at a descent framerate.

id love to see newtonian physics in a game though. had i known iwar had it id have bought me a copy. newtonian is hard though cause of the potential infanate (or rather C-1) speed differences in combat. a system would need to be created to cap performance without apearing as though the physics are wrong perhaps have missions at a certain engagement envelope where youre allowed to reach a maximum velocity relitive to a fixed point in space (your base or mothership for example). you could make an excuse for this in the story, fuel limitations, knoledge of enemy capabilities, or civilized warfare (like what the clans use in battletech, where combat conditions are agreed upon before the battle). for example you are defending a base from attackers and you are given a maximum velocity envelope of 10,000 kph relative to the base. this can be mission specific or ship specific.  also a ship would have a rotational envelope that specifies how fast the ship can turn (usually based on the ships structural soundness and g tolerance). ship control would work as follows:

you dont have direct control over your ships various thrusters, instead you tell the ship what you want to do with the controls, and it tries its best, based on the equipment it has, to get to that target control level. there is of course a slight latency in the effects of controls, you can max your throttle and it may take a few seconds to reach that level. the ship will try to reach the target control level you set as fast as it can.

your throttle controls the percentage of envelope that you ship will try to match based on your ships engine characteristics (rather than controlling your engine output directly). with a 10,000 kph envelope, half throttle will make your ship try to go 5000kph. so rather than trying to figure out how long to burn your engine at what speed, the ship does it for you and all you need to do is set the throttle to your desired speed. lateral thrusters should behave this way too (real space ships have 6dof control).

the ship (based on the characteristics of its lateral/vertical thrusters and main engine thrust vectoring) will automatically try to kill any lateral movement when you change your ships orientation (if you are traveling an 100 kph and turn 90 degrees, youre still going 100kph to the side. your lateral thrusters kick in to slow down that momentum and your main engine kicks in to increase your forward momentum in the new direction to the set velocity.

control of orientation depends on what orientation controll systems (rcs, thrust vectoring, ect) your ship has.  rcs thrusters differ in effects from thrust vectoring. rcs thrusters can control a ships orientation withought altering the ships vector of motion and can operate pretty much at any time during flight. thrust vectoring requires that the main engine be running, which you dont actually have direct control over btw, but can potentially induce a faster turn. the ship will read your imputs and interpet them as desired percentage of rotational envelope. meaning half stick left would make the ship try to turn at half the max. rcs thrusters will fire to reach that rotation speed, if your main engine happens to be running at the time it can use its thrust vecotring to try to speed up the rate at which it reaches that control level. when you center stick, the ship will try its best to kill your rotation as fast as possible.

the result is less consistancy in your ships flight behavior. however your flying in a newtonian environment and combat is much more easyer to handel. it also takes more skill to fly. ships have their own unique handeling personality which could improve the tactical gameplay. of course in combat your envelope would be lesser than say a flight from one planet to another, where you would need a much higher speed. you would need to figure out a way to transition from freeflight mode to combat mode. so missions would be object central and engagement areas would be small. but it does seem a realistic take on space combatthat has the potential to be fun to play. 
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 

Offline Grug

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Re: space combat sim games or lack therof
That Dark Star one link doesn't work btw.

Some of the things stated there are very difficult to design let alone implement from a coder's eyes though. Your basically suggesting a near self aware AI, or one so complex, with so many different goal possibilities and outcomes, that it can appear convincingly self aware. I don't mean to be the crusher of dreams, but some of those things are a long way off (for the IT world, not that long, for the game world, long).

I think of it this way, technology has developed faster than games. The latest graphics in games, its all only just to try and keep up. Gameplay is evolving, just much slower. "Spore" is a good example of what may eventually be a norm, procedural worlds based on reactions.

A game used to be made in a garage with 2 guys over a month or so. Now days its 4 or so years with a team of 30+ (I think these days that deve teams are reaching the hundreds though). As technology accelerates, the development time of games grow due to the time required for conventional art development of high resolution textures and advanced physics.
Eventually, procedural art / level creation will be a nice addition to our hard drives and graphics cards, but until then I'm afraid we're stuck with what we've got.

I like the concept behind the open source gaming community, yet so far, a lack of organization has hindered progress.

 

Offline Thor

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Re: space combat sim games or lack therof
First....yes i remember tachyon...i'm still trying to get me a copy of it again....

Second....Newtonian physics are something good to have, but should be made an option, cause joe blow gamer won't get them (hell even i couldn't make anything much happen in Iwar2, which made me sad....it was more frustrating then fun to play, so i put it away before the story went anywhere).  So sadly, while it would be cool to see the newtonian physics, it won't sell copies.  and if we honestly want a return of space sims, its gotta sell to the masses to prove they're commercially viable, and then eventually we'll see more esoteric titles starting to appear.

Third...Why don't we do something more proactive.  We've always been improving the freespace engine, and making it more and more advanced, and while its not maybe as shinny as the HL2 engine, its pretty damn impressive for a 6? year old game.  so why not create a free original game based on that engine.  completly new story, new models and what not.  set it up so that its basically a pimp  :pimp: for the genre, and we market it in such a manner to try and get the most exposure humanly possible.  that way the next time we send emails to game publishers we can say X number of folk downloaded this game.  That would show the viability of such a game, and hopefully we'd see more of them appearing commercially.  Granted such an endeavour would be huge and complex on our part, and trying to get everyone together to pull it off would be rediculous.  but it'll take an indy success to put space combat sims back on the market.

Fourth...no, actually i don't have a fourth point....

Fifth....this post took so long to write that someone made a good point ahead of me...  There's no reason games should only be doable by a group of hired guns working for a corporation.  there is still a way for the garage builders to be successful, it just has to be done in an organized fashion pulling talented interested folk from around the planet to contribute to the project.  its basically just a larger scale of what we do here all the time.  I'm an indie filmmaker, so the principle is the same.  I can still make a great movie with virtually no budget while some films have a budget larger then some countries GNP and still suck.  There's no reason why there a indie game of quality couldn't exist.  its not even like the materials to make it are expensive....We have the technology, we can rebuild him....

Basically i'm saying if we want something done, do it ourselves...
I can't believe my profile is still active... member since  July 25, 2002

 

Offline Grug

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Re: space combat sim games or lack therof
Free time, money, lifestyle, clash of internet personalities are all a problem though.

You'd need a closely knit group of friends rather than randoms taken in for talents with little consideration to forum personalities and conflicts.

Plus Ferrium is already a strive towards what you propose, yet suffers from problems I've mentioned above. :(

But yes, it would be nice.

 

Offline Unknown Target

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Re: space combat sim games or lack therof
Here's the problem with indie devs making a space game, as opposed to indie movie makers: game devs have to deal with code, which is a monumental problem. The reason that my game projects have never been completely finished is because I don't have a commercially viable code base, and no coders to do anything about that problem.

 

Offline Grug

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Re: space combat sim games or lack therof
Yeah that's a good point.

Art and code are two seperate things.
All the more so because code requires much more solid effort (via tertiary education, self taught or otherwise) few undergo the effort to learn those skills and then to apply their time to a game. Most go off into a large business and are raped by a corporation for the remainder of their lives.

Soon they won't be called games anymore, that word will be trademarked by EA. You will have to go out and buy EASB (Electronic Arts **** Box) and not play, but work on their next project to earn the right to play a game.

An extreme view if not a visionary one, but a metaphorical suggestion of what the game 'industry' may become.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: space combat sim games or lack therof
I've been putting a lot of thought into how to 'properly' implement a game along the lines of 'Homeworld' meets 'Pirates!', with a touch of Eve's ability to change/upgrade your ship's loadout. So you could start off with a single trade/combat ship, but you could still effectively play the game with a massive fleet of Destroyers/Battleships etc.

I'm still torn whether to set it in a Space environment or some kind of fantasy setting where you can sail between floating islands (Imagine a Homeworld-esque interface with ships with Cannon and Boarding parties etc ;) )

Then, of course, I have to put a lot more time towards learning C++ ;)

 

Offline Ace

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Re: space combat sim games or lack therof
Of course a steampunk setting would also be fun ;)

Ye olde flinklockes, hyperdrives, lightening zapping mages, and biogenic undead scourges.

Sort of like Warhammer 40k but more flintlockes! :)
Ace
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Re: space combat sim games or lack therof
I've been putting a lot of thought into how to 'properly' implement a game along the lines of 'Homeworld' meets 'Pirates!', with a touch of Eve's ability to change/upgrade your ship's loadout. So you could start off with a single trade/combat ship, but you could still effectively play the game with a massive fleet of Destroyers/Battleships etc.

I'm still torn whether to set it in a Space environment or some kind of fantasy setting where you can sail between floating islands (Imagine a Homeworld-esque interface with ships with Cannon and Boarding parties etc ;) )

Then, of course, I have to put a lot more time towards learning C++ ;)

I definitely like the way you think.

 

Offline Turnsky

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Re: space combat sim games or lack therof
well, maybe, but don't forget there is the SCP, and the devs behind B5 IFH, commercial viability is the one stumbling block, and also kiddies, EA did have a space/combat/exploration/rpg/chimera/thingamebob, earth and beyond, remember that?.. it was shut down by EA after it enveloped westwood, while i agree that microsoft's business practices may leave something to be desired, it still let the comanies keep their names, instead, with ea, it's under their global electronic arts label.

but enough about EA,
Freelancer was poorly executed, yes, but there's plenty of universe in it to expand upon, so a potential sequel to freelancer, or even starlancer may be in there somewheres, anyway, i'm not talking about how well the game did, etc, i'm talking more of the francise of the game, if you look on the lancersreactor forums, there's still many a faithful freelancer fan on there, why?.. because the game could be modded to an extent where total conversions, new levels, etc were available to create, the only thing not available, was the ability to create a whole new story with tools, etc. a brilliant comparison would be the two games of freelancer and starlancer, the latter being very dead community wise.
moddability adds a lot of life to a game, and allows the players of the game the chance to "write their own story" so to speak, i think, in future, if devs, and publishers want to keep their games economically viable for some time afterwards, they had better not forget to add the mod tools in order to play them, or make the mod tools available later on, such as the relic developers kit for example. or a better example: Fred.
while i think freespace would be prime for a sequel, given the relative drought of simular genre games, and x3's notorious complexity (haven't even played it yet, but i've played x2), a good time for a mere announcement of the game would be sometime in the near future. but of course, that's purely up to the developers, and the publishers, as well, the pure and simple thing is, it's all the bottom line that decides whether or not a game gets the greenlight to go ahead with development.

hell, if you notice these days, most of the games you do see in development have some kinda pure multiplayer component, or face paced action, or some kinda world war 2 theme, etc, etc, there's hardly any science fiction, role playing, space combat, or anything of that like anywhere on the game shelves these days, oblivion's coming out, sure, but how many other titles do you see making an arrival any time soon?

the problem is, that publishers tend to follow a trend like sheep off a cliff, Ea does it, activision does it, and so on, and so forth, for example, how many totally original titles have we seen from EA? none, activision?.. none, Microsoft Game studios?.. ergh.. none, and the list goes on.  Half life 2 is also the same, as it only raised the bar in quality in presentation, not gameplay, not in story, etc. at its core, it's still a simple 'shoot first, shoot some more, and when everybody's dead, hurl a paintcan at them' while the gravity gun is a nice novelty, that's just it, it's a novelty, it doesn't change its core gameplay one bit, it's the same with a lot of things i guess.
they all lack that 'epic' feel that makes you sit back and go.... 'woah'  Freespace came close, Freespace 2, even closer, if any space sim wants to survive in this day and age it's gotta do something special, like make you sit back, speachless, and almost brought to the brink of tears (or beyond) because of its sheer scale or beauty, and with a tight story, it could be one of the greatest things ever. and i'm not talking about eyecandy here, cuz god knows a game is capable of that, i mean just the sheer awe-inspiring mass of it.
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do not torment the sleep deprived artist, he may be vicious when cornered,
in case of emergency, administer caffeine to the artist,
he will become docile after that,
and less likely to stab you in the eye with a mechanical pencil
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Offline Cyker

  • 28
Re: space combat sim games or lack therof
The other problem is immersion and story.

All too many games focus FAR too much on graphics and frills, and forget things like sound, music, storyline and execution.

TIE Fighter was a pretty primitive game, and X-Wing Alliance was just horrid compared to FreeSpace, but in both the level of immersion into the storyline was intense (Well, for the Family parts of XWA; The Rebel parts just felt out of place, and the DeathStar run at the end, while cool, really pulled you out of the immersion. It should have been an Easter Egg or something IMHO; I was more interested in chasing down the bastard that sold out my family in the game than blowing up the Deathstar!!!!)

The level in TIE Fighter where Harkov orders you to clear out a minefield in an unshielded TIE Interceptor, and them promptly tries to kill you (Because he's a traitor and has found out you're an agent of the Emperor), is one of the most awesome set-pieces I've played through in a game, and they did it so well it doesn't even feel like one!
The point when Thrawn's guys pop out of hyperspace to save your sorry ass and a huge battle.

It was so well done; Heck, you KNEW the Imperials were the 'bad guys', but playing TIE Fighter, you felt like you were the Good guys, mopping up rebels for the glory of the Empire ;)

Those games had a lot of soul....

Man, LEC has fallen so far since those days... :(

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: space combat sim games or lack therof
Freelancer - good game, excellent grapships and feel. has a few sor points. Mouse controls and pivotale turrets on fighters made the battles a bit too easy. Ship balance was lacking, especialyl capships. Thank god for mods.

Starlancer - good AI, excellent atmosphere. Fightgin was good, alltoguh the big ships were kinda lacking and the story was poor.

X series - idea is good, graphics are good, execturion was mediocre. Ship balance was awfull and the batels dull

X-Wing: Allaince - The best AI I ever seen. Fights were monumental and impressive, you really had a good sense of scale and danger. the only bad point- the stupid family missions in that transport of yours..too easy and dull.

Freespace - Hail to the king baby!

Wing Commander - not bad, but personally I found it lacking. Missions were too dull and graphics was kinda..bland.
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