Author Topic: More proof of evolution  (Read 195802 times)

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Offline StratComm

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Re: More proof of evolution
Longest page on HLP ever.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: More proof of evolution
the mitochondria DNA pointing to one mother

I decided I'd come back and have a go at this one cause I actually do understand what Mitochondrial Eve actually means where as you apparently don't.

In any species you can trace back to a single organism in this way. It's nothing special in the slightest. It's a simple product of mathmatics. Suppose you take everyone alive today and call that Set S. Now take a set of their mothers. That is Set S2. S2 can not be bigger than S as everyone has only one mother. It can be smaller as many people have more than one child. Now we take a new set S3 composed of S2's mothers. Again the same rules apply so S3 must be the same size or smaller than S2.

Now it should be obvious to anyone paying attention that if I keep doing that I'll end up with a set with only one person in it. The sets are either getting smaller or staying the same size so sooner or later I'll end up with a set with only one woman in it. This is mitochondrial eve. There's nothing special about her really. She isn't the first woman ever. In fact she had other women in her tribe but their descendants aren't alive.

See Mitochondrial Eve is what you get when you start at the bottom branch of a family tree and work your way up. If you start at the top and work your way down you'll find that there are lots of other branches but because we started in one place and worked upwards we don't see them.

Furthermore who Mitochondrial Eve is can change. If I were to kill everyone in the world apart from my sister my mother would become mitochondrial eve since her set would be the first set where there is only 1 person. If I later found I'd missed someone in Australia Mitochondrial Eve would change again. The Toba supervolcanic erruption for instance actually pushed the date at which Mitochondrial Eve lived quite far forwards.

Lastly you point to mitochondrial eve as if it is somehow evidence in your favour yet you choose to ignore that no figure comes out with her existing 6,000 years ago. In fact they tend to place her at 200,000 years ago. Ironic how one of the best evidences for creationism turns out to actually prove that young Earth creationism must be wrong.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2006, 06:50:55 pm by karajorma »
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: More proof of evolution
Firslty, animals don't have the fear of man.  That's why carnivores like sharks, alligators, cheetahs, etc attack man (because we're fragile & slow prey compared to, say, a gazelle).  Would you go out on a walk, unarmed, in the middle of the African plains?

Actually, you would be reasonably safe doing that. Most carnivores do fear people. The ones that don't are either ones that do not come in contact with people often enough to develop such a fear (sharks) or just aren't that bright. The documented instances of attacks upon humans tend to point to two possiblities: we should stop poking the animal with a stick (whether we realized we were or not is, unfortunately, irrevelant; the animal doesn't much care if you think you're harrassing it, all it cares about is that it thinks you're harrassing it) or the animal was desperate enough that it took the first available prey to come along.

Although an excellent argument exists that they just ignore us because we taste bad. According to the societies which both practiced cannablism and have been studied in detail, human meat tastes like pork. Flyblown, rancid pork that's been left sitting in the dirt for week. As correlation it should be noted that most attacks on humans by predators end with one or two bites, and the human is not actually consumed.
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Offline StratComm

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Re: More proof of evolution
The trouble with humans is that we tend to be more difficult to catch and kill than it's worth.  We're tall for our mass, so it's harder to suprise us in low brush.  We're capable of fighting back, we usually travel in groups (when around areas where we would get attacked by large predators) and we're fairly versitile at throwing things/making lots of noise/otherwise not acting like any self-respecting prey.  We also don't have a particularly high muscle/bone ratio so our meat isn't the most rewarding.  Overall though what makes the difference is that we're bold, and as such we are not the norm and should be feared.  However, it's rare to be able to find an animal that hasn't had the oppertunity to learn about man and that isn't cautious from experience.  There's nothing inate about it and nothing to stop them from attacking us if they are desperate.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline ZmaN

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Re: More proof of evolution
you people are denying your own beliefs...

how foolish....
Well what do I do now?  Well Jack, you seem to have an act for blowing things up....

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Offline karajorma

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Re: More proof of evolution
you people are denying your own beliefs...

Who is denying their own beliefs?
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Offline Turey

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Re: More proof of evolution
awww, all the good points have already been taken. I've always liked the New Testament better than the old anyways.


He created Adam and Eve, the first male and female, from which we are all descendants. This is all found in the Bible, in the Genesis book.
does anyone wanna explain, without using evolution, how there are many different races, all of which a directly descended from a single white (according to many religious paintings) couple?


Some Christians believe that God made the universe and left it. Others believe he directs it, or directs the evolution of the universe.
just as a side note, that's me.


Life created by chance by non-living material is radically impossible.
I can create life from non-living things. Does that make me God? No.


You can’t have design without a designer.
True, but is it really design? Ever seen the famous "Virgin Mary" Potato? Just because we see a design doesn't mean there is one. Humans are very easy to fool. Just ask Orson Welles.


Creationists believe that at a time when man and animals were many in number...All had perished together in the Great Flood." 6 (Ben Sonder)
off topic, but why is the killing of 6 million helpless Jews considered "absolutely repulsive and horrific", while the murder of all but around 5 people is considered a "miracle"?
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Offline StratComm

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Re: More proof of evolution
you people are denying your own beliefs...

how foolish....

You know, it would be so much easier to have this conversation if you could possibly post something that's not single-line, arbitrary and inflamatory.  A simple explanation as to what you mean would be a nice start, but the reasoning behind your posts would go a lot farther.

does anyone wanna explain, without using evolution, how there are many different races, all of which a directly descended from a single white (according to many religious paintings) couple?

Good point, though if we're going by the actual Bible - and not European artists - the correct race would be one of the Middle-eastern variety.

I can create life from non-living things. Does that make me God? No.

Nice catch using the Google cache for Wikipedia.  I looked for a couple of things in there but was timing out on it as well.

True, but is it really design? Ever seen the famous "Virgin Mary" Potato? Just because we see a design doesn't mean there is one.

Or the Virgin Mary toast, or highway underpass, etc...
« Last Edit: April 09, 2006, 07:33:58 pm by StratComm »
who needs a signature? ;)
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline ZmaN

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Re: More proof of evolution
Patent nonsense. Crystals show a high degree of order without the need for a designer. Are you claiming that God designs ever single snowflake? Your argument is fallacious. You must prove that a designer is needed before you can claim this. So far you have not done this.

Complete and utter nonsense. They believe nothing of the kind.
Gross simplification. Natural selection occurs at the level of the individual not at the level of the species. It is hard to tell if this is just an oversimplicifcation or another misunderstanding.

Radiocarbon dating easily proves that those fossils are not only thousands of years old. There is simply too little carbon 14 present for them to.

Wrong. The ID people are predominantly christian.

Wrong yet again. Most ID'ers do believe it's God. They simply don't say that much when trying to discredit evolution using ID. If you want to ignore ID completely in this debate I'm more than happy to ignore them too but at least get what they say correct in the first place. that young.
The point being? This has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. The big bang theory is about how the early universe was created, and may or may not be right. There are several alternative theories about. Earth, the Sun and the other planets however did not spontaneously create itself out of pure energy, they formed from the slow consolitation of matter into larger and larger clumps. There is little disagreement over this, as it's a process continually happening throughout the galaxy and is readily observable with powerful telescopes. But regardless of, wrong theory.

Oh, and incidentally, the fact that such formation of far away stars is observable in telescopes, combined with the known and proven speed of light, completely invalidates any young earth (well, young universe, but since the 'world' goes beyond just earth it applies) arguments that might rear their heads later. It is simple: We know stuff existed millions of years ago. We can, quite literally, see it right before our eyes. So no 'nothing existed prior to 10.000 BC', please. I know noone has claimed that yet, but consider that a preemptive strike I guess. Actually wait a sec...
Err, no. Just no. Big bang and evolution are two entirely seperate theories. They have nothing to do with each other, at all. Evolution doesn't come in until we already have a fully formed planet with at least some life on it. As far as the theory of evolution cares, god could have taken care of all the initial world-building and life-seeding.

That's just the "evidence" we've been looking to see.  I've yet to see a creationist produce any though, as the trouble is it doesn't exist.  We've got records of civilizations over 6000 years old, and that hardly leaves much time for early man even in a biblical context.
Neither has evolutionists, unless you call incomplete fossils “evolutional evidence”
No one has ever said that natural selection was luck, and the rest of natural history (origins of the universe, origins of life) are almost as philosophical as they are scientific.

What evidence have we actually found to support evolution?  I mean theres lucy, and all those other types that are supposedly half transitioned man, and they all turn out to be either APE or MAN, NO APE-MAN

There, thats all of it.....

Another thing not mentioned yet is that Evolution states that everything is getting stronger and stronger and is getting more powerful...
The sun gets cooler, not hotter...  Men get older, not younger...  HECK even Windows XP gets slower...
Well what do I do now?  Well Jack, you seem to have an act for blowing things up....

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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: More proof of evolution
you people are denying your own beliefs...

how foolish....

Still waiting on that report.

Seriously, though, if you want to have a civil conversation and have people take your own beliefs seriously, you've got  to stop throwing random, inflammatory sentences out in the open and argue the points without calling all of us suckers of the devil. Making random one-liners is also a surefire way to convince the opposing team that you don't have any ammo left and are only proving your beliefs wrong.

And, for the love of God, only one period is necessary at the end of a sentence. Seriously, it's like a mini-willyprincipal going on with your posts.
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Offline ZmaN

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Re: More proof of evolution
does anyone wanna explain, without using evolution, how there are many different races, all of which a directly descended from a single white (according to many religious paintings) couple?


When a new generation was born, people went in different directions...
If you went where there was more sunlight, then you had darker skin..
Dude, its so possible...
Well what do I do now?  Well Jack, you seem to have an act for blowing things up....

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Offline Turey

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Re: More proof of evolution
HECK even Windows XP gets slower...

that made my day right there.  :D


EDIT:
When a new generation was born, people went in different directions...
If you went where there was more sunlight, then you had darker skin..
Dude, its so possible...

buut isn't the changing of skin color to fit your environment considered evolution? it's "survival of the fittest" to change your skin color to avoid melonoma.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2006, 07:48:06 pm by Turey »
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Offline Mars

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Re: More proof of evolution
I used to think much like Zman did, then I realised that if my faith was totaly dependant on one line of the Bible, than it really wasn't worth anything anyway. How humanity was created in Christianity is more or less immaterial, notice it isn't in the Apostles creed, nor is it in any lists on what is required to be a Christian, that is until eveloution came around, when suddenly, in order to be Christian, you had to belive God created the Earth in 6 days (resting the 7th) and really, that's a moot point.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: More proof of evolution
@Zman : You've quoted a whole bunch of my arguments completely out of context. Why?

What evidence have we actually found to support evolution?  I mean theres lucy, and all those other types that are supposedly half transitioned man, and they all turn out to be either APE or MAN, NO APE-MAN


So homo habilis is a man or an ape? Or Homo Neanderthalis? Or Homo Erectus? Where do you draw the line then? Which are men and which are ape?

Quote
Another thing not mentioned yet is that Evolution states that everything is getting stronger and stronger and is getting more powerful...
The sun gets cooler, not hotter...  Men get older, not younger...  HECK even Windows XP gets slower...

Utter bollocks. Evolution does not describe a great progressive ladder. Evolution states that animals will evolve until the animal fits the niche they exist in. It doesn't claim anything like which you describe about aging and it certainly has nothing to do with astrophysics or the speed of windows XP :rolleyes:

When a new generation was born, people went in different directions...
If you went where there was more sunlight, then you had darker skin..
Dude, its so possible...

That's evolution!

People adapting to hot climates by getting darker pigmentation IS evolution. How is that possibly an argument in your favour?
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Offline StratComm

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Re: More proof of evolution
I can't harp on this enough can I.  Use proper quotes.

(bunch of quotes from earilier in this thread without explanation, source, or even organization)...
Neither has evolutionists, unless you call incomplete fossils “evolutional evidence”

Why yes, yes we do.  Well, that along with a lot of other stuff already mentioned.  Or how about (gasp) observable changes over time?  Like bacteria mutating to form immunity to antibiotics, or weeds becoming resistant to herbacides, or any of a variety of fruit-fly type experiments.  We have the evidence, regardless of whether or not you choose to ignore it.

...another random quote...

What evidence have we actually found to support evolution?  I mean theres lucy, and all those other types that are supposedly half transitioned man, and they all turn out to be either APE or MAN, NO APE-MAN

What are Neanderthals then?  They weren't man and they certainly weren't ape.  Granted, they were not an ancestor of man either, but man and Neanderthal did share a common ancestor that was also not ape.

There, thats all of it.....

Another thing not mentioned yet is that Evolution states that everything is getting stronger and stronger and is getting more powerful...
The sun gets cooler, not hotter...  Men get older, not younger...  HECK even Windows XP gets slower...
:wtf:  Yeah, ok.  Except that evolution states nothing of the sort.  Better able to survive in ones environment often has nothing to do with being stronger.  In our case, it was by being smarter.  In the case of a rat, it was by being faster and harder to see and catch.  Or an owl, being able to see clearly in the dark.  And by the way, the sun does get hotter as it ages.


I really believe you're capable of giving at least an internally consistant argument here, but it's going to require a little more effort.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2006, 07:55:58 pm by StratComm »
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Turey

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Re: More proof of evolution
i think everyone needs to lighten up, so here's a picture of one of my dad's shirts:

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Offline ZmaN

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Re: More proof of evolution
So homo habilis is a man or an ape? Or Homo Neanderthalis? Or Homo Erectus? Where do you draw the line then? Which are men and which are ape?

Homo Habilis is an Ape.  its actually smaller then the so called missing link of evolution, "lucy".
Neanderthalis is a man with the disease called rickets, caused by lack of vitamin C.
Cro-Magnon's were man as well.
Home Erectus is also an Ape. (also known as "the Java-Man")

I'll post my science book pages now and post them so you can see what I'm talking about
Well what do I do now?  Well Jack, you seem to have an act for blowing things up....

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Offline StratComm

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Re: More proof of evolution
Homo Habilis is an Ape.  its actually smaller then the so called missing link of evolution, "lucy".

Size has nothing to do with ape-ness.  It's all about things like brain size in relation to the skull and the shape of the jaw.  Both the great apes and humans are bigger than Lucy, but that has no bearing whatsoever on her validity as a member of the human ancestoral family. 

Neanderthalis is a man with the disease called rickets, caused by lack of vitamin C.

Where the hell do you get that garbage?  An entire race of beings different because of a disease?  There are fundamental skeletal differences between a Neanderthal and a modern human (again, mostly in the skull) that simply cannot be caused by disease.

Neanderthals were not men.  They could not produce viable offspring with man.  They were a different species entirely, but one that diverged from modern man much later than, say, chimps. 

Cro-Magnon's were man as well.
Home Erectus is also an Ape. (also known as "the Java-Man")

Homo Erectus similarly was not ape, as he had features that were man-like than ape-like.  Go far enough back, and the ancestors become common therefor the entire man/ape distinction gets lost.  I'm just totally lost on why you make that arbitrary distinction for species that show a line of progression up to modern man.  The question of when and how we changed into what we are today is something that's under study, sure, and I'll grant you that.  But it's not "were we created" vs "did we evolve", it's "what did our ancestors look like, and why did they evolve divergently from the ancestors of the apes?"

I'll post my science book pages now and post them so you can see what I'm talking about

Lets see that book.  Please.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2006, 09:26:37 pm by StratComm »
who needs a signature? ;)
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Mars

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Re: More proof of evolution
Not to be taken seriously:

How do you know, personally, that Neanderthals can't have kids with Homo Sapiens? Hmmm? :wtf:

 

Offline Ace

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Re: More proof of evolution
So homo habilis is a man or an ape? Or Homo Neanderthalis? Or Homo Erectus? Where do you draw the line then? Which are men and which are ape?

Homo Habilis is an Ape.  its actually smaller then the so called missing link of evolution, "lucy".
Neanderthalis is a man with the disease called rickets, caused by lack of vitamin C.
Cro-Magnon's were man as well.
Home Erectus is also an Ape. (also known as "the Java-Man")

I'll post my science book pages now and post them so you can see what I'm talking about

They're all damn dirty apes. All of 'em stickin' self-absorbed holier-than-thou hominids!

Homo sapiens sapiens is an ape.

:)
Ace
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