[Mefustae]

Call it pride if you will, Maybe the reds were just battle blind/combat high. Irellevent in the end, Until i find the book and scan it or find an article on the story (some finite details) this is all speculative. I cant remember enouugh to warrant a debate to be honest. Once i've dug it up ill post here though.

So do you actually remember that to be the case, or are you simply pulling out of your arse? [Serious question, i'm not 'taking the piss]

[AlphaOne]

Umm as far as i can remember that was the case. Although mi histori is a bit rusty these days. I'm gooing to chek it out when I get home cuz now i'm at work.

[Janos]

I thought Market Garden dropped Allied forces between Russia and Germany?  ( a bridge too far )
If thats the case they should have got there first.

Well not quite. They dropped them in Belgium. The eastern front was in Eastern Europe.

I think my philosophy is kind of archaic in some ways, but its the way i feel: If my country goes to war without me, I dont care what its over, who started it, Whats at stake, I just cheer em on and give my total support.

It's not archaic, it's dangerous, irresponsible and stupid. You're little better than a miscarried sheep at that point.

[Janos]

I was asking how you would of handled the europe situation.

And btw, it wasn't really the UK or US that bombed Germany into the ground. Russia took care of that with their artillery. What was it 300 guns firing for 5 days straight or something like that?

Most of the strategical bombings and attacks on German cities were by Allied forces. Russia did not actually have very large and potent airforce and they had their hands full of Eastern Front until late 1944 when the outcome was already clear.

The UK and US didn't even hear about it they were that far away.
And leaving europe to russia was pretty much the only choice they had to them. Russia had bolstered their forces and outnumbered the UK and US forces together something like 30:1. It would of been bloody stupid to start another war with russia.

Russia did not apparently hear about Dresden either. And they used it for propaganda after war! oh the irony

Russia and the western Allies were allied because of necessity, not because they liked each other.

Anyways. The most pointless of all pointless what-ifs is the question if Allies should have attacked Russia. Well gee that ought to go down really well, seeing how Russia had ridiculously big production although dimished manpower reserves and the War on Pacific was still going on. The most delightful counterargument to this is to point out that Russia used almost completely US-built trucks. TRUCKS. These are the guys who copied all good designs and adopted them into use with variable results (Christie tanks, engines, trains, artillery, anything). I doubt 5000 trucks would have been enough to make a difference. Or was it 50 000? Can't remember.
Another what-if: What if someone maybe important had, at some point, maybe made some decision which would have had some kind of consequences and maybe ramifications on a chaotic scale? DISCUSS

[Colonol Dekker]

If you're askin me, then yeah i do remember that to be the case. Commisars are hard as nails but they arent as bad as yanks when it comes to Blue on Blue. I'm gonna tryu and find some facts on this i remember it was towards the end, mere weeks before hitler topped himself.

I thought Market Garden dropped Allied forces between Russia and Germany?  ( a bridge too far )
If thats the case they should have got there first.

Well not quite. They dropped them in Belgium. The eastern front was in Eastern Europe.
[/qoute]

Operation Market Garden
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Market Garden
Part of World War II

Waves of paratroops land in the Netherlands during Operation Market Garden in September 1944.
Date: 17 September 1944 - 25 September 1944
Location: Netherlands
Result: German victory
 
Combatants
XXX Corps
First Allied Airborne Army II SS Panzer Corps
Army Group B
First Parachute Army
Commanders
Montgomery von Rundstedt
Strength
35,000 airborne, XXX Corps 20,000 (start of the battle)
Casualties
18,000 casualties 13,000 casualties
Siegfried Line Campaign
Moerbrugge - Market Garden - Nancy - Hurtgen Forest - Aachen - Scheldt - Metz - Queen
Operation Market Garden (September 17-September 25, 1944) was an Allied military operation in World War II. Its tactical objectives were to secure a series of bridges over the main rivers of the German-occupied Netherlands by large-scale use of airborne forces together with a rapid advance by armoured units along the connecting roads, for the strategic purpose of allowing an Allied crossing of the Rhine river, the last major natural barrier to an advance into Germany.

I think my philosophy is kind of archaic in some ways, but its the way i feel: If my country goes to war without me, I dont care what its over, who started it, Whats at stake, I just cheer em on and give my total support.

It's not archaic, it's dangerous, irresponsible and stupid. You're little better than a miscarried sheep at that point.

You keep thinking that  You obviously dont allow free opinion in Janostopia.

[Mefustae]

Ah, well I have read about Allied and Soviet troops linking up before the "official" link-up over the Rhine (?), whereupon they promptly fired upon each other, though likely not intentionally.

And I totally agree with Janos on this one, your way of thinking is why nobody started asking questions when the Jews started disappearing in the early 40's.

[Colonol Dekker]

Before you go on, The UK is assisting in a police action, I spent 9 months out there myself in 2004, Thats why i said when my country goes to war without me. Fricking twits.

[Janos]

Before you go on, The UK is assisting in a police action, I spent 9 months out there myself in 2004, Thats why i said when my country goes to war without me. Fricking twits.

... uhh, voluntary armies... governments getting their lpower from the people... military as an extension of governmental power... the entire democracy thing... uhhh

Define "your country going to war without you".

[Colonol Dekker]

In my own words, an egagement between my old Regiment and an active enemy in a continuing theatre of battle after my term of service.

Hows that ?

[Janos]

Operation Market Garden
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[¨/quote]

Whoops. My bad.

I think my philosophy is kind of archaic in some ways, but its the way i feel: If my country goes to war without me, I dont care what its over, who started it, Whats at stake, I just cheer em on and give my total support.

It's not archaic, it's dangerous, irresponsible and stupid. You're little better than a miscarried sheep at that point.
[/quote]

You keep thinking that  You obviously dont allow free opinion in Janostopia.
[/quote]

yes i mean that's a ****ty thing to say why oh why did i say that free opinion is not allowed there your attack on that angle is completely valid because i said that

...

[Janos]

In my own words, an egagement between my old Regiment and an active enemy in a continuing theatre of battle after my term of service.

Hows that ?

That's an interesting definition of phrase "If my country goes to war without me, I dont care what its over, who started it, Whats at stake, I just cheer em on and give my total support", but whatever.

[Colonol Dekker]

So youre saying i am not allowed; even if for whatever reason i'm unable to keep fighting for my country, I'm not allowed to wholeheartedly back them because that makes me a miscarried sheep. Its not an ant-colony you know, I do choose that path.

You dont like thath FINE, By trying to catalogue me, and talk me into a corner for making a statement, that makes you kind oppressive doesnt it?
 

[Colonol Dekker]

Define "your country going to war without you".

I tell you what mate if brains were dynamite you couldn't blow a f*cking envelope open!!!!!!!
 

[Mefustae]

So youre saying i am not allowed; even if for whatever reason i'm unable to keep fighting for my country, I'm not allowed to wholeheartedly back them because that makes me a miscarried sheep. Its not an ant-colony you know, I do choose that path.

You dont like thath FINE, By trying to catalogue me, and talk me into a corner for making a statement, that makes you kind oppressive doesnt it?
 

No, that's now what he's saying at all. Frankly, i'm sure nobody will care one way or another whether you support a given war, that's entirely your descision to make. But you phrased it like this:

I think my philosophy is kind of archaic in some ways, but its the way i feel: If my country goes to war without me, I dont care what its over, who started it, Whats at stake, I just cheer em on and give my total support.

You said, without doubt, that you would support your nation in a war no matter the cause. Janos obviously takes that to mean you would support a war in favour of anything, such as a war to wipe out the last of the Jewish blood, or possibly nuking France, or maybe invading a sovereign nation for literally no reason at all. You effectively pledged to support your nation in whatever evil, heinous or downright horrific action it takes, and many [including myself] find that to be the attitude that is destroying the Western world. Now can you see why we call that mind-set f***ing retarded?!

[Colonol Dekker]

I can see your point completely, but it doesnt need my comments to justify it does it? Why should you guys feel the need to try and verbally assault an opinion, I dont need justification, but i empathise with you....
The politicians cause the arguements, the Armies are there to follow a sworn oath.

[AlphaOne]

Actualy the army is there to protect the citizens of its given country and to serve the people of the country. Not the politicians not the businessmen . But the people.

[Colonol Dekker]

Try telling SAddam that 5 years ago 

Next you'll tell me that the sky is up and fish like water............
I mean, (calming down) the  British Army swear an oath to the Queen and her Ruperts Officers, It just happens that they take orders form the PM.

But Duty is Duty and i take great pride in it, Well i used to, now i give my support instead...
Change of subject- or lock this off please Fury its gone waaaay off the rails.

[aldo_14]

So youre saying i am not allowed; even if for whatever reason i'm unable to keep fighting for my country, I'm not allowed to wholeheartedly back them because that makes me a miscarried sheep. Its not an ant-colony you know, I do choose that path.

You dont like thath FINE, By trying to catalogue me, and talk me into a corner for making a statement, that makes you kind oppressive doesnt it?
 

The army has no choice, beyond thinly defined issues of the legality of individual orders (actually the issue that started this topic), as to where and when they fight.  If someone decides they have to die in a godforsaken desert with substandard boots, they do it, because that's how we need the army to act. 

But when you abdicate an opinion, you're not supporting the army; you're supporting the politicians, the people who don't fight, and who measure these things in popularity rather than the human lives that it costs.  It's giving a carte blanche for all manner of, well, evil to support an act just because it's an act.

There is no way for a serviceman/woman to refuse to participate in an illegal war as they can for illegal orders; we've seen that already demonstrated in court.  That makes it the responsibility - duty - of the public to speak out when a war is manifestly illegal.

[Kosh]

I think my philosophy is kind of archaic in some ways, but its the way i feel: If my country goes to war without me, I dont care what its over, who started it, Whats at stake, I just cheer em on and give my total support.

What that translates to is that you will support any conflict as long as it isn't your ****ing ass on the line. Appearently it is ok to send other people to their deaths, but as long as you risk nothing, why should you care?

[Turambar]

ugh, patriotism