[Nuclear1]

As far as the course of war is concerned, I support Israel all the way, and I've actually considered changing my language of choice from Mandarin to Hebrew or Arabic should this escalate (I'm going into the USAF as a linguist).

No offence to you, but surely they'd want to get native or at least first generation non-native speakers (i.e. the children of immigrants) of those languages for their linguists?

It's a long process, but the military administers a test that determines one's ability to learn a language, and the higher the score, the more advanced the languages available. It's a pretty intense test too; the people taking the test have to pick up the patterns of an entirely made-up language within minutes in order to pass.

After Basic, the people who are set to become linguists are sent off to the Defense Language Institute and spend 63 weeks teaching the candidates their selected languages. So naturally, given their existing skill and later being required to speak their language 24 hours a day, the graduates are very much fluent in their languages.

Damn, that's a fine looking tank.

Yeah, it's definitely an intimidating piece of Israeli handiwork.

[neoterran]

This conflict seems now to have escalated into a state of war, with israel bombing the highway to syria's capital and destroying the airport in beirut, as well as hezbollah shooting rockets into haifa.

[Bobboau]

man this unravled QUICK!

[Mongoose]

Israel completely pulls all of its forces and settlements out of Gaza and hands it over to the Palestinians.

Palestinian terrorists launch new waves of rocket attacks from newly-Palestinian Gaza.

Palestinian terrorists dig tunnels into Israel to conduct attacks.

Palestinian terrorists kidnap an Israeli soldier and demand the release of thousands of prisoners.

Hezbollah attacks Israeli military forces in Israel, kidnaps two more soldiers, and demands even more troop releases.

Am I the only one who sees something pathetically wrong here?  I mean, I'm not going to say that Israel is blameless over the whole course of this conflict, but Israelis weren't the ones blowing themselves up in crowded shopping malls and nighclubs.  Israelis didn't use a newly-granted territory to launch rocket attacks, instead of, oh, say building some schools or hospitals or homes.  Israel didn't kidnap three people and demand the release of 3000.  Honest to God, these Islamikazi bastards deserve every bit of hell they're raising here.  How immensely deluded do you have to be to keep holding one solitary soldier when faced with the wrath of perhaps the most well-trained military forces on the planet?  They're just freakin' psychotic.  And they'll still try to blame all of this on Israel.  Um, welcome to reality, dumb ****; this one's all on Hamas and Hezbollah. 

And the worst part of all this is, innocent lives, Palestinian, Israeli, Lebanese, and whoever, continue to be lost.  Just because a group of dickless fanatics is so intent on the utter destruction of a nation that they refuse to do something as simple as sit at a negotiating table.  There aren't even any words to describe this.

P.S.  Oh yeah, TrashMan.  Let's just kill the entire Israeli military.  Let's kill people like Sandwich and his brother for defending their nation's sovereign right to exist.  Makes perfect sense to me.

[TrashMan]

When Israel was formed in the begining, nobody asked hte people who lived there anything. They were put before a finished act - naturalyl they got mad. I can understand why they attacked then.

Howevere, by now Israel has established itself. If it were to go back to the territory it initally was granted in 1948 most arabs would be happy with that.

You say Israel pulles out of Gaza - so why do they attack? They attack becoause palestinins are treated like third class citizens and they don't forget all the hardship the whole people endured.

I'm against Israel in this becosue they strike at the whole people. Unselectivly.
Destroying bridges, leaving a million people wihtout power and water in the desert, during summer - now THAT is a crime. How many of the palestinians in those prisions are actualyl terrorists? How many palestinins that were killed or exectuted were simply labeled terrorists afterwards?

Israel has th right to defend itself. But this is not defense - it's madness.

[Mongoose]

Maybe "most Arabs" would be happy with Israel pulling back, maybe they wouldn't.  But we're not talking about "most Arabs" here, are we?  Hamas' charter includes the goal of utterly annihilating the state of Israel.  This is the same Hamas that was elected into the Palestinian parliament.  Now THAT's madness. 

You speak about "unselectively" targeting civilains.  So, I guess strapping some C4 stuffed with nails onto yourself and blowing yourself up in a shopping mall doesn't count, does it?  What's worse: leaving people without power, or murdering them in cold blood?  Like I said, Israel's done thier share to contribute to this whole mess, but in my eyes, at least, the blame scale tips pretty heavily onto a group of certain fanatics.  Maybe with all of this, the majority of the Palestinian people will finally figure out that supporting the terrorists among them only results in suffering.  If groups like Hamas and Hezbollah lost all public support, we wouldn't be in this situation, now would we?

[Omniscaper]

REGUARDLESS of Israel's beginnings.... they are there NOW, and they are there to STAY. There presence there has been forged in fire from the number of attacks since their establishment (from ancient times to times after their re-establishment in the late 40's) and I for one root for them.

New generations are slugging it out over there over a history they themselves did not live through and experienced to warrant the "revenge" position. The mindless Islamist extremists are being puppet mastered by an ideology of hate/jealousy placed by their own governments. Many people dont care to hear or pay attention to Israel's  peace gestures such as military withdrawls, but prefer to focus on Aljazeera's  over emphasis on  "the poor and helpless Palestinians" I see it as nothing more than a platform to rally the ill informed Islamic world to continue their ultimate agenda of Israel's demise.

Now put yourself in those "suffering" Palestinian's shoes as you watch your own government along with neighboring countries provide manpower and insano funds for terriorst attacks on Israel instead of actively and directly helping your community flourish. Would you actually think they are greatfull for the violence that will only worsen their situation? The Gaza situation is complicated but resolvable issue of politics, economics, racial relations. Promoting terrorist acts makes it a MILITARY issue adding jet fuel to the flame.

Practically every military action Israel has taken has been REACTIONARY. Whether or not their response is an overreaction is open to debate, but that country is there NOW and has existential right to defend itself. War is hell and in that region of poorly governed Arab nations surrounding a prosperous nation of a different idealogy, which sprung from fruitless wastelands.... I' am not surprised.

[aldo_14]

The thing that strikes me, though, is that if we assert Israels right to exist simply by dint of being there (something I agree with, may I add), is not then also only fair to extend the principle of self-determination to those occupied territories?

(Regardless of whatever **** is done 'in their name')

[Omniscaper]

Thats the dilema. The Israel's border expansion has been reactionary acts from past wars and current public safety. Causality dynamic allows for escalation from finger pointing to gun pointing. Many peace initiatives in the past that involved military withdrawls and accords, did not stop Israel's ungoing problem with terrorism that threatens public safety.

When you attempt to invade and destroy a country's existence, and they kicked your arse defending themselves, and in turn then made buffer zone areas of your land for future prevention of aggression... you can't say...  "Oops.. sorry for that gesture. Can we take it back?.... along with our land?" Arab media (not to mention US Liberal media) constantly remind people of the buffer zone "occupation", but not their government's initial invasion that caused it.  Knowing that military action is useless after many failures to destroy Israel's presence, I'm not surprised those governments allow for (or perhaps even support) these little terrorist attacks with goals to get Israel to overreact, which would then in trun, fuel more terrorist attacks.

Of course a line must also be drawn to the extent a country can do for its protection. I've never agreed with the phrase "The best defense is a good offense", but Israel's military tactics I think have been burnt out of the "defense only" policy before their first preemptive act of defense decades ago.

Once again Israel is being scrutinized for their military actions. Their military was attacked, some killed, and some kept hostage. They REACT with a rescue operation based on available intel. Aljazeera reports collateral damage form the op. Leboneese purposefully attacks civillian Israeli targets. Israel takes its gloves off......    turn the page

[aldo_14]

It's not handing back territory if you create an autonomous state, though.

[Jetmech Jr.]

When Israel was formed in the begining, nobody asked hte people who lived there anything. They were put before a finished act - naturalyl they got mad. I can understand why they attacked then.

Howevere, by now Israel has established itself. If it were to go back to the territory it initally was granted in 1948 most arabs would be happy with that.

You say Israel pulles out of Gaza - so why do they attack? They attack becoause palestinins are treated like third class citizens and they don't forget all the hardship the whole people endured.

I'm against Israel in this becosue they strike at the whole people. Unselectivly.
Destroying bridges, leaving a million people wihtout power and water in the desert, during summer - now THAT is a crime. How many of the palestinians in those prisions are actualyl terrorists? How many palestinins that were killed or exectuted were simply labeled terrorists afterwards?

Israel has th right to defend itself. But this is not defense - it's madness.

Are you a lunatic, or just misinformed?

[Omniscaper]

It's not handing back territory if you create an autonomous state, though.

Autonomous state..........

Has Palestine shown any form of leadership qualities, population control, police initiative  that would warrant such a title (for Israeli acknowledgement and respect)? Would that title mean anything to its people without the "blood of their infidels" spilt to vidicate them? 

Palestine is not fighting for indepndence from Israel. Its a border dispute that every Arab nation and media is using as a platform for their anti- Israeli agenda.

Lets not forget that Iran and Syria. The potential puppet masters for current tension instigators?

[Turnsky]

well, there goes the nieghborhood.

[aldo_14]

It's not handing back territory if you create an autonomous state, though.

Autonomous state..........

Has Palestine shown any form of leadership qualities, population control, police initiative  that would warrant such a title? Would that title mean anything to its people without the "blood of their infidel enemies" spilt?

I wasn't aware self-determination was a concept to be doled out to those we consider worthy to our standards, rather than being an inexorable human right. 

Can we really judge the Palestinians under-occupation, any more than we can view either Vichy France or the Resistance movement as indicative of France as an independent & unoccupied state?

After all, as far as the Palestinians are concerned, they're occupied by a country that considers them 'expendable'; where the capture of a single Israeli soldier is enough justification for destroying infrastructure and bombing raids.  Now, I don't consider anything to justify the killing of innocents in terrorist acts, but I think I can understand why they might not be too concerned with protecting Israel.

[Omniscaper]

I wasn't aware self-determination was a concept to be doled out to those we consider worthy to our standards, rather than being an inexorable human right. 

Can we really judge the Palestinians under-occupation, any more than we can view either Vichy France or the Resistance movement as indicative of France as an independent & unoccupied state?
After all, as far as the Palestinians are concerned, they're occupied by a country that considers them 'expendable'; where the capture of a single Israeli soldier is enough justification for destroying infrastructure and bombing raids.  Now, I don't consider anything to justify the killing of innocents in terrorist acts, but I think I can understand why they might not be too concerned with protecting Israel.

There are two forms of self-determination, individual and collective. The collective protects and allows for individual self-determiniation. Israel's collective agenda made a buffer zone to protect its individual safety. Palestine pimps its oppression of their individuals, while allowing their individuals to run around like children with guns to do the work for them. Palestine can't make a clear distinction between its civilian and military populace. Btw, what percentage of Palestine is "occupied" by Israel again?


I think the Palestinian government is banking on this border dispute to galvanize its people to focus on its hatred of Israel to disctract them of poor leadership. What better way to get a people distracted and united but by giving them a common enemy while getting the sympathy of others for their struggle to attain what?.... a unearned title? Individual self-determination is made possible by collective organization. The Palestine "government" is not acting in the best interest of its citizens and is using Israel as its scapegoat for its own incompetance.


We are talking about government policies here. Not human rights and free what ever. Policies are what is affecting human rights here.

I'm going to sleep and pray for the best turn out of this insane situation.

[NGTM-1R]

I wasn't aware self-determination was a concept to be doled out to those we consider worthy to our standards, rather than being an inexorable human right. 

There is self-determination, and there is self-determination. We generally view the concepts of murder and suicide, when determined through any means, as a sign of non-competency to determine for yourself, and we put you somewhere where you can't (in theory at least) do those things.

Palestine has self-determined for Hamas, which would like to murder all Israelis. However this is not a goal they can realistically accomplish, though they try anyways. And in trying Hamas are much more likely to end up precipitating some kind of national Palestinian suicide, and worst of all, Hamas knows this. They are perfectly willing to cause the martyrdom of all Palestine. They think that would be just great.

One must consider whether Palestine is mentally competent to self-determine at this point. I haven't decided for myself; I'd need to be there, know more, then I do. But the question rears its head.

[aldo_14]

I wasn't aware self-determination was a concept to be doled out to those we consider worthy to our standards, rather than being an inexorable human right. 

There is self-determination, and there is self-determination. We generally view the concepts of murder and suicide, when determined through any means, as a sign of non-competency to determine for yourself, and we put you somewhere where you can't (in theory at least) do those things.

Palestine has self-determined for Hamas, which would like to murder all Israelis. However this is not a goal they can realistically accomplish, though they try anyways. And in trying Hamas are much more likely to end up precipitating some kind of national Palestinian suicide, and worst of all, Hamas knows this. They are perfectly willing to cause the martyrdom of all Palestine. They think that would be just great.

One must consider whether Palestine is mentally competent to self-determine at this point. I haven't decided for myself; I'd need to be there, know more, then I do. But the question rears its head.

Well, and to answer Omni as well in this, you simply can't collectively punish a people for the act of a few cretins with bombs.  Even the election of Hamas is not necessarily a vote for violence, because Hamas also pushes itself in both a humanitarian role, and as an opposition to the corrupt-then-government.   But the PTs as a 'state' under constant embargo (even if there are no Israeli troops in the region, nonetheless Israel excercises a military haegemony with total impunity, as we can see here, or with the wall, etc) I think is a different proposition to the PTs as an actual independent state, in any case.

It's a choice between two wrongs, I think.  The Palestinians kill innocent civillians deliberately, the Israelis kill innocent civillians perhaps not so deliberately but in greater numbers and with what often seems a very low value placed upon those lives.   But we can see, already, that violence and unilateralism just cycles and spirals, and there will be no solution for lasting peace or security, short of genocide, on this current track.  And I think that's key; for all the **** done by terrorists to Israel, for all the right they have to want revenge (I would), all that can be accomplished through force is killing more and more people, and strengthening the likes of Hamas and Hizbollah. 

That's not to say I don't hold terrorists responsible for their role here, either.  There's no excuse to justify killing innocent people to make a point.  But I think Israel is in a position that it can afford to take the biggest steps.

[Colonol Dekker]

Ones man terrorist is one mans freedom fighter, and vice versa. I know its a moot pooint but i threw it in cos its how i felt at the time this statement went to print....

[IPAndrews]

you simply can't collectively punish a people for the act of a few cretins with bombs. .

I would agree you can't punish everyone for the actions of a few. On the other hand if a minority in country X is attacking country Y and country X is doing nothing about it, I call that an act of agression on the part of country X. Under those circumstances country Y is perfectly within it's rights to defend itself.

If that's actualyl what's happening. I haven't been paying a huge amount of attention to be honest. There's a certain amount of conflict in the MIddle East apathy going on in my head.

[Fear]

I think you are all missing some main points, israel doesn't mean to harm any lebanon civilian(dont forget they did published an annoucment which they write clearly to those citiziens to get the hell away from where the terroists act),though to beat the terroists they(IDF) have to destroy thier foundation(Oil,Electricty) which does harm the civlian-normal-life, that's true but it serve two purposes : 1. it's acctually stoping some of the missles.
                                                                                           2.it makes the citizien to hate the terroists acts which     
                                                                                              causing them those situations.
In the other hand the terroists are skiping the fighting agaisnt thier acctually enemy and preffer to just shoot the israel civilians,only today 12 people are injured,yesterday they reached to haifa hurting and disturbing the life of those who are far from the "war". 7 ketyushot here, 6 there,8 here,3 there,explosive in the mall,and such. this is the 21 century type of war, its a new kind of war which i blame the arabs for.

By the way trashman i think you should better go to read your books and tolkien.