Author Topic: GTVA command & you  (Read 23387 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

yea, every space-faring ship I've encountered in sci-fi has had some sort of defense against hull breaches. These life-saveres are called bulkheads. They automatically close and seal, leaving those inside to experience vacuum for the first and last time, and those who are on the other side of the bulkheads just get light headed...

    |[===---(-         
    ||
 =(||==)_
    ||_____|
 =(||==)
    ||                   
    |[===---(-                             

"Take my love. Take my land. Take me where I cannot stand. I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me. Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back. Burn the land boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me. There's no place I can be since I've found Serenity. But you can't take the sky from me." - Ballad of Serenity

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
The thing about vacuum breaches is that you'd think that in a space-faring warship, that they'd have air-tight compartments to isolate depressurizations.  In modern naval warships in the US, we set "condition Z" (pronounced Zebra) which means we close all water-tight doors and hatches and isolate ventilation and water systems so that if a section of the ship was blown off, you wouldn't flood the entire ship or loose the functionality of your vital systems.  We could assume that space-navy ships would probably have a similar design philosophy.  Essentially the only part that you would depressurize would be compartments located near the outer hull, while the interior would remain fully pressurized.  Besides, navies would probably have procedures on how to deal with loss of pressurization scenarioes such as skin-suits and such.  Read David Weber, he shows how it's done.

huh?  What's this in relation to?

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
I think it goes without saying that both Terrans and Vasudans use that system and if the Shivans do have gases on their ships then it's pretty much a certainty that they do too. However if you're a member of a race like the Shivans which can withstand being in a vacuum then you'd rig it so that the ship could be deliberately vented as long as your equipment wouldn''t suffer from ill effects in hard vacuum.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 
Wait, if Shivans need to inhale some sort of gas, they have a weakness. Depending on where the air-intake is (the nose for humans), we could just blast that through their thick skulls...  :nervous:

    |[===---(-         
    ||
 =(||==)_
    ||_____|
 =(||==)
    ||                   
    |[===---(-                             

"Take my love. Take my land. Take me where I cannot stand. I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me. Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back. Burn the land boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me. There's no place I can be since I've found Serenity. But you can't take the sky from me." - Ballad of Serenity

 

Offline Dan1

  • 27
Personally, I've always thought that the shivans wore some kind of powered armor/suit.  Just my opinion though.

Additionally,  I would hope that the GTVA would understand to read some shivan writing.  Case for this as follows:

1. Captured Dragon in FS1.

2. Captured mara's in FS2.

They had to learn to use the controls somehow and I believe that there is probably writing in there somewhere, if not at least for the UI/database for basic controlled flight.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 11:42:34 am by Dan1 »
Cause what you got is what we need and all we do is dirty deeds!
-Best FS Campaign Theme Ever

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Personally, I've always thought that the shivans wore some kind of powered armor/suit.  Just my opinion though.

Volition stated (on the VBB) we were seeing the Shivans true form, not a suit.  Plus, there's enough knowledge and specimens in FS1 & ST to determine whether it was a suit or not, methinks.

Additionally,  I would hope that the GTVA would understand to read some shivan writing.  Case for this as follows:

1. Captured Dragon in FS1.

2. Captured mara's in FS2.

They had to learn to use the controls somehow and I believe that there is probably writing in there somewhere, if not at least for the UI/database for basic controlled flight.

"Push this button.... what does it do?  Left?  Ok, left."

Seriously, you don't need instructions for this sort of thing - even assuming the Shivans have instructions.  On one hand, look at a car - no written instructions, but most people with a base knowledge can work it out (i.e. determining the accelerator, clutch, etc) with some trial and error.  On the other hand, you can also imagine an airliner cockpit - it has lots of controls with lettering, but to the layman they are still indecipherably complex.  Plus, the indications are IIRC that Shivans are integrated with the control system - they don't need labels or manuals most likely in that case,  because it's a straight brain-flight activity type mapping (you'd need to map Shivan brain patterns to output, rather than control operation to ouput). 

Essentially, all you need is a bit of trial and error; it's not requisite, even if helpful, to have instructions.  Plus, we don't even know if the Shivans need writing...... or possess the ability.

 

Offline AlphaOne

  • !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • 210
some form of writing must exist in order for a civilisaton to evolve and achieve a level of sophistication higher then a stoneage man. But then again we do not know that the shivans actuali evolved but instead there are some indications that they were actualy created yet that has yet to be proven.

But still reverse engeniering shivan tech however difiult it mai apear must be a lot more easy then it apears if the GTVA managed to not only get a few fighters to work except the engines but they actualy managed to improve on the available tech. You can not do that simply by reproducing on a more rudimentary level the available tech. For the to improve it they would have to understand it...!

So in the end i believe shivan tech advanaced and complicated as it mai be is not that dificult to understand and deciphre that it would prove an insurmountable task .
Die shivan die!!
Then jumps into his apple stealth pie and goes of to war.What a brave lad....what a brave lad say the ladies in red.
 

(\_/)
(O.o)
(> < ) 

This is Bunny . Copy  Bunny  into your signature to help him on his way to world domination!

 
some form of writing must exist in order for a civilisaton to evolve and achieve a level of sophistication higher then a stoneage man.

Among evolved primates, yes. I'd prefer not to make such assumptions about extraterrestrial life, especially creatures as enigmatic as the Shivans.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Among evolved primates, yes. I'd prefer not to make such assumptions about extraterrestrial life, especially creatures as enigmatic as the Shivans.

So all Shivans have perfect recall?

Maybe they do now, since they're all living in cybernetic bodies, but I don't think they came that way. There's really no reason at all to assume any form of biological life will not require some method of keeping permanent records to attain any serious technological development. If it acts anything like life as we know it, it's fairly certain they have writing of some kind.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
A hive mind may have no need whatsoever for language of any sort. Let alone written language

some form of writing must exist in order for a civilisaton to evolve and achieve a level of sophistication higher then a stoneage man.


If the Shivans aren't a race so much as a single entity then they wouldn't need a written language. In fact they probably wouldn't even understand the concept of language. The same goes for most other kinds of hive or group minds.

Or the Shivans may have a method of passing on information directly between themselves that is good enough to never need to write anything down.

I can come up with about a dozen other theories that explain why that assertion is complete nonsense when dealing with a species you know next to nothing about.

Quote
But then again we do not know that the shivans actuali evolved but instead there are some indications that they were actualy created yet that has yet to be proven.


Name one indication that they were created. There's nothing like that in the game at all AFAIK. What you're posting is complete conjecture. I haven't seen a single thing that couldn't point just as easily to the Shivans upgrading themselves.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 
Additionally,  I would hope that the GTVA would understand to read some shivan writing.  Case for this as follows:

1. Captured Dragon in FS1.

2. Captured mara's in FS2.

They had to learn to use the controls somehow and I believe that there is probably writing in there somewhere, if not at least for the UI/database for basic controlled flight.

Didn't they replace the entire control setup in those fighters? I doubt a human/Vasudan would fit comfortably into a Shivan-porportioned cockpit. They probably just set up new controls, and hooked them up to the parts of the fighter. Don't need alien linguistics experts to do that, just engineers.
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?" -DEATH, Discworld

 

Offline Freespace Freak

  • 28
  • Official forum permanewb
Name one indication that they were created. There's nothing like that in the game at all AFAIK. What you're posting is complete conjecture. I haven't seen a single thing that couldn't point just as easily to the Shivans upgrading themselves.

 :eek2:

Karajorma, the great FS2 master of knowledge!  I am surprised at you!  Here's a quote directly from the tech room regarding the Shivans.

Quote
These details are cited as evidence that the Shivans could not have evolved as the Terran or Vasudan species had, but that they were likely constructed by another entity.

Of course, this doesn't mean that the Shivans were constructed, and when I mean constructed, I mean they were "created by other beings," not that they come off an assembly line.  However, it does mean that canon supports the theory, and to say that they might have been created is just as valid as saying the might not have been.

 
IMHO, that's just :v: messing with our heads.
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?" -DEATH, Discworld

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
some form of writing must exist in order for a civilisaton to evolve and achieve a level of sophistication higher then a stoneage man. But then again we do not know that the shivans actuali evolved but instead there are some indications that they were actualy created yet that has yet to be proven.

That only applies to an anthrocentric view.  It's a classic mistake to assume the development of human intelligence defines the development of any intelligences.  The Shivans might, for example, have quasi-telepathy (or straight out telepathy) and genetic memory that reduces or removes the necessity for written information.  They might, for example, place markers (such as warning signs) through scent, radiation, or visible light wavelength rather than by geometric painted shapes.

(EDIT; imagine, for example, a race that communicated by releasing & scenting pheremones - how would such a race have 'writing' and would we even recognise it as such?)

Additionally, the Shivans could have evolved past the need for such comparatively primitive data representation; perhaps storing information as quasi-brain patterns that can be directly copied to the Shivan subconscious.  Finally, if writing does exist, it may be of a manner unreadable to human eyes; perhaps the Shivans can sense subspace patterns, and use sensation this to add a sort of 3rd axis (if we view human writing as '2D' or flat) which provides contextual information to writing.

Not to forget the previously mentioned hive mind theories, of course.

But still reverse engeniering shivan tech however difiult it mai apear must be a lot more easy then it apears if the GTVA managed to not only get a few fighters to work except the engines but they actualy managed to improve on the available tech. You can not do that simply by reproducing on a more rudimentary level the available tech. For the to improve it they would have to understand it...!

So in the end i believe shivan tech advanaced and complicated as it mai be is not that dificult to understand and deciphre that it would prove an insurmountable task .

The exact quote is "Our engineers have modified and optimized these craft. They'll handle even better than the Shivan original, and if you play it right, you might even avoid enemy detection." 

That doesn't say improved; it says optimized (pushed as much performance as they can conceive with modified Shivan technology) and improved the handling.  That's a world away from reaching the Shivans tech level, and it doesn't imply actually adding to it - only playing around with various settings and tweaks.  Plus, given the frequency they are frittered away at, there's no reason for believing the Mara is the height of Shivan technology - or even representative of the depth and complexity of a Shivan tactical computer system or large scale system.  finally, it's worth observing that even with Great War specimens (including from the GTI), the GTVA pilots are (by canonical messages at least) astounded by the Mara, indicating that manufacturing such a ship (different from steal and retrofitting it) is beyond GTVA capabilities.

Name one indication that they were created. There's nothing like that in the game at all AFAIK. What you're posting is complete conjecture. I haven't seen a single thing that couldn't point just as easily to the Shivans upgrading themselves.

 :eek2:

Karajorma, the great FS2 master of knowledge!  I am surprised at you!  Here's a quote directly from the tech room regarding the Shivans.

Quote
These details are cited as evidence that the Shivans could not have evolved as the Terran or Vasudan species had, but that they were likely constructed by another entity.

Of course, this doesn't mean that the Shivans were constructed, and when I mean constructed, I mean they were "created by other beings," not that they come off an assembly line.  However, it does mean that canon supports the theory, and to say that they might have been created is just as valid as saying the might not have been.

The pertinent part of karas comment is "I haven't seen a single thing that couldn't point just as easily to the Shivans upgrading themselves."  The techroom entry itself only offers that (Shivans as designed entities) as a suggestion, but it does not provide a basis that cannot be applied to self-design (as kara says), and additionally it is worth noting the techroom entry is effectively from before the main campaign and thus wouldn't any (conjectural, I recognise) discoveries that may have been made during the progress of the FS2 campaign.

 

Offline Freespace Freak

  • 28
  • Official forum permanewb
IMHO, that's just :v: messing with our heads.

You can say that, but the fact is that the theory remains plausible.  It could be that the Shivans were created as slaves for another species, and then the Shivans destroyed their creators before moving on to destroy all other species.  It's also possible that the Shivans evolved naturally.  However, since :v: threw the possibility out there that they could have been created, that lends credibility to the theory.  However, because :v: never explicitly said "The Shivans came about like _____," then that theory could also be wrong.

My point is nobody can say "Hey you're taking stuff out of your ass with the whole Shivans were created theory" because no one is.  I'm not saying that the theory is right or wrong, but it's a perfectly legitimate theory none the less.

Hmmm, I guess a good response would be, name one indication that the Shivans were self upgraded or evolved naturally.  We have just as much evidence for either way, namely absolutely not a god damn thing.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 03:38:04 pm by Freespace Freak »

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Karajorma, the great FS2 master of knowledge!  I am surprised at you!  Here's a quote directly from the tech room regarding the Shivans.

Quote
These details are cited as evidence that the Shivans could not have evolved as the Terran or Vasudan species had, but that they were likely constructed by another entity.

Quote the whole thing next time :D

Quote
Physically, the Shivans have multiple, compound eyes and five legs with claw-like manipulators. Their insect-like carapace does not appear original to the creature's physiognomy, suggesting the Shivans are a cybernetic fusion of biology and technology. The integrated plasma weapon also exhibits properties of an organic-artificial fusion. The weapon may be a kind of focusing device powered by the energy of the being itself, though this point is the subject of heated controversy.

The use of the word original is interesting. A designed creature would not have an original form. Maybe I'm reading too much into that particular word. Then again maybe not :)

Quote
These details are cited as evidence that the Shivans could not have evolved as the Terran or Vasudan species had, but that they were likely constructed by another entity. Only a handful of Shivans have ever been captured, and all research on live specimens ended with the GTI's Hades rebellion in 2335. The results of these studies remain highly classified.

But this is where it gets very interesting. If the research on Shivan specimens is classified what would conclusions based on that research be doing in public? I think that this sentence is showing how :v: are messing with us. The statements about the shivans being designed are probably from a source which doesn't have access to the GTI reports. i.e someone who knows as much about the Shivans as we do :p
 Notice the comment about citing as evidence. Who would be citing that? Certainly not the scientists who were actually studying the Shivans. They'd be prevented from talking about them. Again we're probably talking about people who didn't actually study the Shivans are who are working on 2nd or third hand evidence.


Quote
Of course, this doesn't mean that the Shivans were constructed, and when I mean constructed, I mean they were "created by other beings," not that they come off an assembly line.  However, it does mean that canon supports the theory, and to say that they might have been created is just as valid as saying the might not have been.

Just because something is conjecture doesn't mean it can't be correct. I never said that the Shivans couldn't be a race created by someone else. My point was that there is no reason whatsoever to assume that the creator (assuming that there was one) couldn't be the Shivans themselves.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

  

Offline Freespace Freak

  • 28
  • Official forum permanewb
Just because something is conjecture doesn't mean it can't be correct. I never said that the Shivans couldn't be a race created by someone else. My point was that there is no reason whatsoever to assume that the creator (assuming that there was one) couldn't be the Shivans themselves.

Yes, right, um, I think we're actually arguing the same thing here.  I'm not going to say whether they were created or self-upgraded or naturally evolved because I really don't know.  So, I'm not going to include either possibility in any of my theories of Shivan design philosophy or ship design, either.  Which is what I guess you're trying to say as well.  Either way I don't think it'll make a difference.  Whether they need pressurized compartments or not, I would think that species, including Terrans and Vasudans, who've had some experience with space warfare would design their ships with systems or procedures to handle depressurization scenarioes, just as today's navies have systems and procedures in place to handle multiple compartment flooding scenarioes and the like.

 

Offline Dan1

  • 27
I believe that there is much more that is understood about the shivans than we are led to believe.  I look to Dr. (Hargrove's?) report on the Knossos and why they think it isn't shivan in origin as evidence that they understand more about the Shivans than we are led to believe.

I know I'm grasping at some pretty short straws but I believe that the argument can be made.
Cause what you got is what we need and all we do is dirty deeds!
-Best FS Campaign Theme Ever

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
I believe that there is much more that is understood about the shivans than we are led to believe.  I look to Dr. (Hargrove's?) report on the Knossos and why they think it isn't shivan in origin as evidence that they understand more about the Shivans than we are led to believe.

I know I'm grasping at some pretty short straws but I believe that the argument can be made.

Dunno; for all you know the report read

Quote
Dear GTVA Command

Having extensively studied the subspace portal in Gamma Draconis, we have established it is not red and is, in fact, a sort of blue-ey-greeny-gray.  We have therefore concluded it is not Shivan.

Yours sincerely
Dr. Hargrove BSc MSc MD Phd POS GTVA HLP BLAHBLAH

 

Offline Freespace Freak

  • 28
  • Official forum permanewb
Quote
Dear GTVA Command

Having extensively studied the subspace portal in Gamma Draconis, we have established it is not red and is, in fact, a sort of blue-ey-greeny-gray.  We have therefore concluded it is not Shivan.

Yours sincerely
Dr. Hargrove BSc MSc MD Phd POS GTVA HLP BLAHBLAH

ROFL!!!!