[aldo_14]

Isn't that just a cop out?

All right, so since I really have no clue whatsoever what the hell you're going on about, let me ask you this:  just what do you want out of me?  Do you want me to draw up a comprehensive, detailed, and cohesive game plan to resolve this situation?  Do you want me to sit here and puzzle over exactly what the percentage values of economic sanctions should be, or which officials from which countries should meet together in what cities on what dates?  Do you want me to create a 100-point list of criteria that would have to be met for any sort of military action of any scope to be taken?  Do you want me to perform a complete psychoanalysis of Kim-Jong Il and figure out every single factor that motivated him to conduct this test in the first place?

Just how exactly am I "copping out" here?  All I did in this thread was post a few random thoughts that were rattling around in my brain.  No more, no less.  I didn't intend to get into some multi-page discussion about the rammifications of potential actions of both sides.  I never once claimed to have any idea as to how the nations in question should proceed.  I'm sorry if that's the impression you received from me.  I've said my piece for now, and if you want to call that a "cop-out," then that's your prerogative.

At any rate, I'm just hoping that the UN actually manages to put some teeth behind whatever they decide, instead of the usual half-hearted "sanctions" attempts.  As an international organization, it'd be nice to see them stand up and deal with a threat to international safety in a powerful manner.  If they can't manage to pull this one off, then I'll lose whatever respect I did have for them in the first place.  Guess there's nothing to do but wait and see.

Define what 'pull this one off' is, and then your statement can carry weight.  Otherwise you're just throwing abstracts out as justification for what conclusion you decide to invent. Any idiot can say 'they failed' with 20/20 hindsight.

[Bobboau]

get NK to give up the bomb?

[aldo_14]

get NK to give up the bomb?

How?

I could ask the UN for the Moon on a Stick, it doesn't mean I can damn them for failing to deliver it - unless I can provide something to show I'm making a reasonable request.  IT's all very nice saying 'they've failed if NK has the bomb', but it means nothing unless you can give some evidence as to why that is a reasonable goal to have in the first place.

[Bobboau]

what is the UN's reason for exsisting?

[Unknown Target]

"To promote international unity and discussion, and to promote peace"

Not very good at it.

[Bobboau]

I suppose it would be fair to fault them for failing at that, wouldn't it?

[Blue Lion]

Who knows, maybe they passed? 

That's kinda vague

[WeatherOp]

I suppose it would be fair to fault them for failing at that, wouldn't it?

No, it's America's fault.

[Bobboau]

well that is what the North Koreans are saying

[Ulala]

I suppose it would be fair to fault them for failing at that, wouldn't it?

No, it's America's fault.

No, it's Bush's fault. Duh.

[BlackDove]

You know you're all just waiting for someone to say "North Korea set us up the bomb!" and then authorize a firing sequence from all available means onto the country with the "crazy dictator".

[Kosh]

If thats the case...convince China and South Korea to cut their food and energy supplies.  It won't take very long for the regime to fall under its own weight.

Then what happens? Suddenly you have a bunch of loose Korean nukes that could end up anywhere in the world. In addition to that you would have a massive humanitarian crisis.

For those of you who say invade:

You have probably the most brainwashed group of people in the world in NK. They are willing to fight to the death for their regime. This isn't Iraq: NK is poorer, and the people are much more brainwashed than the Iraqis were.

This was probably the biggest foreign policy failure of the Bush administration. Just looking at everything that they have done, it is blatantly obvious they wanted to push the regime to do stuff like this. The administration is trying to play chicken with NK, and sooner or later they will run into eachother. If a small, improvrished, starving country of 23 million people can outmanuever the American Juggernaught so easily, I really wonder what a much more powerful country can do.

[WeatherOp]

well that is what the North Koreans are saying

Well even dummies go with the flow and cruise with the crowd.

[NGTM-1R]

Here's the other problem: What exactly are we capable of doing to North Korea, militarily speaking? Even if a huge chunk of our army weren't tied up in the Iraq ****storm, I suspect that a land war in North Korea would basically be the equivalent of putting the U.S. forces in a giant blender.

Quite a bit, actually. Given three months to accomplish it, sufficent aircraft (say three carriers and heavy USAF aircraft flying from Guam), and enough ordinance we could put them back at the Industrial Revolution just via aircraft and cruise missiles.

The problem is that even if South Korea explictly denies the US permission to use their bases or overfly their territory Mr. Il will start chucking stuff at the ROK. Maybe even China too for failing to protect him.

[Blue Lion]

Quite a bit, actually. Given three months to accomplish it, sufficent aircraft (say three carriers and heavy USAF aircraft flying from Guam), and enough ordinance we could put them back at the Industrial Revolution just via aircraft and cruise missiles.

And that's a good idea?

[Kosh]

Maybe even China too for failing to protect him.

I think China would be doing everyone a favor if they decided to invade NK......

[IceFire]

If thats the case...convince China and South Korea to cut their food and energy supplies.  It won't take very long for the regime to fall under its own weight.

Then what happens? Suddenly you have a bunch of loose Korean nukes that could end up anywhere in the world. In addition to that you would have a massive humanitarian crisis.

For those of you who say invade:

You have probably the most brainwashed group of people in the world in NK. They are willing to fight to the death for their regime. This isn't Iraq: NK is poorer, and the people are much more brainwashed than the Iraqis were.

This was probably the biggest foreign policy failure of the Bush administration. Just looking at everything that they have done, it is blatantly obvious they wanted to push the regime to do stuff like this. The administration is trying to play chicken with NK, and sooner or later they will run into eachother. If a small, improvrished, starving country of 23 million people can outmanuever the American Juggernaught so easily, I really wonder what a much more powerful country can do.

My thought was that at the very least you can try and get the loose screws out of the leadership and get a reunification effort with the South.  I guess I was using the East/West Germany example...maybe not such a good thought afterall.  I'd rather change come from the inside rather than Bush go and try and install a new government.  We've seen what thats like.  I'm really not sure what us armchair strategists could do now...its sort of a bleak no win situation at this point.  Sounds like the whole thing should have been cut off at the pass...as usual.

[achtung]

Maybe even China too for failing to protect him.

I think China would be doing everyone a favor if they decided to invade NK......

I honestly wouldn't feel too much surprise if they did that.

[WeatherOp]

Don't know the sourse, jsut ripped it off one of the forums I go to. Interesting if true.

GERTZ: U.S. doubts Korean test was nuclear; Readings fall short of atomic explosion... MORE...

U.S. intelligence agencies say, based on preliminary indications, that North Korea did not produce its first nuclear blast yesterday, WASHINGTON TIMES star reporter Bill Gertz is set to report in Tuesday editions.

U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said that seismic readings show that the conventional high explosives used to create a chain reaction in a plutonium-based device went off, but that the blast's readings were shy of a typical nuclear detonation.

The underground explosion, which Pyongyang dubbed a historic nuclear test, is thought to have been the equivalent of several hundred tons of TNT, far short of the several thousand tons of TNT, or kilotons, that are signs of a nuclear blast, the official said.

[Bobboau]

would not be suprised.