[DaBrain]

I don't think the brown stuff is supposed to glow to be honest...

[Herra Tohtori]

Perhaps not. I always imagined that it should, though. Matter of opinion I guess... Did any of the retail ships even have glow maps to begin with?

[castor]

[shout]The glow looks sexy to me [/shout]
*runs*

[Taristin]

The Bakha does not and should not have any glow maps.

[S-99]

The new beams when dab created them were cool at first, but i quickly found them to be too sporadic and all over the place as compared to more coherent beams which is how they're supposed to be. Hell, even the beam mega man charge up affect is cool, that should be like retained. I mean when a beam charges up with the mega man charge up affect it's like a sginification of the fact that that beam is not good news. The place where dab made a lasting impression on his beams are the beam glows from the ship charging up and firing. Herras beams are good from screenshots, take a look in the 3.6.8screenshots thread for more of his stuff. The thing about his beams that sort of needed to be worked on is that they look flat, idk if he's worked on them or not since then, but they're good.

[Herra Tohtori]

I'll continue work on them as soon as my two questions are answered:

How exactly does the $Tile Factor work in the code? What units does it use, because it doesn't seem to work well with either raw metre value for length of the tecture nor with fixed aspect ratio value.

How does the $Translation work in the code? What kind of values am I supposed to feed into the table? Integers? Decimal numbers? What units? Metres per second value was definitely not a very great success, so I'm kinda in the dark as to what it's supposed to use.

It's probably easy enough to make textured beams consist of several layers, of which the "base" layer would have greatest width and top layer being thinnest, with different $Zadd factor so they look like they are not on one layer but on top of each other. At least it should be easy in GIMP. The problem is that using two layers would basically double the memory requirement, depending on resolution of course, but still. Three layers, threefold memory use. With beams, the sections didn't originally have big animated textures, they were generated on the fly by table values.

The other thing is that transparency blending feels rather weird to me when I tried to actually do this in-game. True alpha blending doesn't work, and when I stack two layers on top of each other they easily become overbright, somehow. Then again, my current animations were designed to be used as single layers. Ironically, the frames were actually originally made of three layers that were combined into single layer frames, but individual layers do not exist anymore. So basically, the beams should look 3D enough when viewed from side - save for the hitpoint, which sometimes looks a little... weird.*

So, the question is what are you ready to sacrifice - looks or memory? It's obviously no problem if you have RAM to spare. You could have ten layered beams if you really want that much 3D effect into them, but the thing is, the beams will still mostly look flat in most cases when you view them from sides, since your monitor will alway remain flat. Even looked from shallow angle, you really need to see the hitting point to see the fact that the beam only consists of a single layer. So I can try what gives with more layers, but the key problem right now is to get accurate information about what the table values are expected to be.


To any degree, I don't think rushing these beams to 3.6.9 mediaVP's would be such a marvellous idea, unless I get them worked to satisfactory condition with help of information from coder side before the new MVP's are released...


*Personal opinion: Beam hitpoint needs more explosions to cover the actual point of impact, where the one-layerness of the beam is apparent. Starting point is not a problem currently, because the beam blends nicely into brigh center of beamglow ani. How do I increase the amount of stuff released in the point of impact?

By the way, here's one of the cooler recent screenshots... Just for fun.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Trivial Psychic]

Those beams look a little too wide for the size of the beamglow.

[Slime]

After testing those Herra's beams in action, I have to admit that they are one of if not the best beams I've seen. They're not going everywhere from my folders for some time! _{Hyvä hyvä!}

[phatosealpha]

I kinda liked the animated shivan beams.  My only real gripe is with the shivan engine glows - they look flat.

[Pnakotus]

I kinda liked the animated shivan beams.  My only real gripe is with the shivan engine glows - they look flat.

Were they proper animated (with a coherent, flickering core) for you?  Anyone who noticed seems to think they were broken and the white core elements were all over the place and it looked terrible.

I liked the old-fashioned flickering beams: it's one of the things that sets FS beams apart from all the other beams in science fiction. 

[phatosealpha]

No, rather, they looked like a single white core with a red glow that would split apart into two smaller pararrel beams with a red glow that would then come back together.  Thought it gave it a nice swirling, tightly focused chaos feel that I kind of liked - and at any rate, did something to break apart the lightsaber blue+green are good/red is bad effect.

I ain't gonna be heartbroken if it gets changed - it's a matter of aesthetics, and does differ from the stock feel an awful lot - but I still kinda liked it.  The only thing I really hate is those shivan engine glows - the round uniform ones fake being 3d very well.  The textured one doesn't do it at all.

[Pnakotus]

No, rather, they looked like a single white core with a red glow that would split apart into two smaller pararrel beams with a red glow that would then come back together.  Thought it gave it a nice swirling, tightly focused chaos feel that I kind of liked - and at any rate, did something to break apart the lightsaber blue+green are good/red is bad effect.

I ain't gonna be heartbroken if it gets changed - it's a matter of aesthetics, and does differ from the stock feel an awful lot - but I still kinda liked it.  The only thing I really hate is those shivan engine glows - the round uniform ones fake being 3d very well.  The textured one doesn't do it at all.

Really?  I don't think I've ever seen it 'work': the white elements in the beams just go completely bonkers. If they moved with a purpose like you describe I wouldn't have a problem with it - then again, the complex beams are quite obviously built up from many different segments, and it looks quite naff when they hit you or something near you and you can see the obvious layering.

[Slime]

After playing some more, I have a problem using H. Tohtori's beams, as the shivan ships use the terran-blue as their anti-fighter beam colour. It wouldn't be near as bad if they didn't still have the red glows that appear on other ships, so it looks very confusing. Did I install them wrong or what's the case? I blended them with my MediaVPs by placing the beam VP in the mediavp(s) folder, and then placing the table file to mediavps/data/tables. I didn't use the mod.ini, naturally.

EDIT:  Found the problem, one of the beams had the wrong textures.

Code: [Select]

Name: SAAA
+nocreate
$BeamInfo:
+Muzzleglow: S_Beamglow
$Section:
+Index: 0
+Width: 8
+Texture:   aaa-beam
+RGBA Inner: 0 0 0 0
+RGBA Outer: 0 0 0 0
+Flicker: 0.2
+Zadd: 2.0
+Tile Factor: 64, 1



$Section:
+Index: 1
+Width: 0 ;6
+Texture:   aaa-bar
+Flicker: 0.1
+Zadd: 1.0
I changed this to:

Code: [Select]

Name: SAAA
+nocreate
$BeamInfo:
+Muzzleglow: S_Beamglow
$Section:
+Index: 0
+Width: 8
+Texture:   shivan-beam
+RGBA Inner: 0 0 0 0
+RGBA Outer: 0 0 0 0
+Flicker: 0.2
+Zadd: 2.0
+Tile Factor: 64, 1



$Section:
+Index: 1
+Width: 0 ;6
+Texture:    shivan-bar
+Flicker: 0.1
+Zadd: 1.0
And now it works. It seems the shivan anti-fighter beam had the "normal" terran/vasudan specs. It anyone else has this problem, mv_effects-wep.tbm needs to be fixed.

[S-99]

Something that should definitely be kept is the AAA beams that are already in the vp's. Yet another time for my informational screenshots. Here's two good up close pretties of the current AAA beams which are so beautiful.


And here's an example of the shivan beams.
Good old shivan coherence.

What's happening?

Oh, man...wtf happened here?

YOU DON'T KILL WITH DISCO LIGHTS!!! THIS LAST SCREENSHOT CAME FROM THE 70'S!!! It's like the shivan beams were like a 60 year old guy with ED...the sath could only keep them good and strong for a second. Anyway, sorry for the big images, but this should square away anybody taking up the task of describing how these shivan beams are. Not to mention also, but like the final explosion of the hecate here looks like crap. They've been like that for a while.

[Pnakotus]

S-99, the 3.6.8 Shivan beams don't do that for me.  I've got some screenshots around somewhere, but the two white segments that move apart just go insane and wave around at random, with two distinct white sections visible and moving over the whole width of the beam.  This is why I don't like them: the shots you posted look *silly*, but not obviously broken.

Ah, here it is:

You can see that the white parts have moved much further apart than in your screenshots, but what you can't see is those white segments moving around at high speed.  It's chaotic, messy and unattractive, but I've never been able to work out why it happens to myself and a few other posters here and not everyone.

[S-99]

Well yes of course, it looks better when they're actually in their high speed motion. I use to like them for that, but it got old fast. I think it's safe to say we have the same beams, i just didn't want to go posting 6 shots of the beams transition. I can if you really want to. I was just showing off the beam when it's coherent, when it's in the middle of separation, and when it's done separating, then the process would repeat with the agreeable "chaotic messy unnatractive" description.
My shots do contain the same beams, but plz don't think i had different ones, these are with my crazy ass flag settings, but the thing that matters here is the beam animation.

The transition of the white parts of the beam you describe are happening in my shots. There's a second of coherence, then it starts separation, and my ugly shot of a very similar wide separation, but even more so on the final shot that the white parts also thin out.
But even though the shivans might look cool on cruiser sized vessels and corvettes, they look hideous on any ship bigger, especially these sath beams. The chaotic thing was cool and all, itd be cool to even keep the chaotic thing, but in a much different form than it currently is.

[Herra Tohtori]

After playing some more, I have a problem using H. Tohtori's beams, as the shivan ships use the terran-blue as their anti-fighter beam colour. It wouldn't be near as bad if they didn't still have the red glows that appear on other ships, so it looks very confusing. Did I install them wrong or what's the case? I blended them with my MediaVPs by placing the beam VP in the mediavp(s) folder, and then placing the table file to mediavps/data/tables. I didn't use the mod.ini, naturally.

EDIT:  Found the problem, one of the beams had the wrong textures.

Code: [Select]

Name: SAAA
+nocreate
$BeamInfo:
+Muzzleglow: S_Beamglow
$Section:
+Index: 0
+Width: 8
+Texture:   aaa-beam
+RGBA Inner: 0 0 0 0
+RGBA Outer: 0 0 0 0
+Flicker: 0.2
+Zadd: 2.0
+Tile Factor: 64, 1



$Section:
+Index: 1
+Width: 0 ;6
+Texture:   aaa-bar
+Flicker: 0.1
+Zadd: 1.0
I changed this to:

Code: [Select]

Name: SAAA
+nocreate
$BeamInfo:
+Muzzleglow: S_Beamglow
$Section:
+Index: 0
+Width: 8
+Texture:   shivan-beam
+RGBA Inner: 0 0 0 0
+RGBA Outer: 0 0 0 0
+Flicker: 0.2
+Zadd: 2.0
+Tile Factor: 64, 1



$Section:
+Index: 1
+Width: 0 ;6
+Texture:    shivan-bar
+Flicker: 0.1
+Zadd: 1.0
And now it works. It seems the shivan anti-fighter beam had the "normal" terran/vasudan specs. It anyone else has this problem, mv_effects-wep.tbm needs to be fixed.

That's not a bug, it's a feature... I actually noticed that and it was a conscious choice at time. I had a mental image of all AAA-beams - also Shivan ones - being blue, but I didn't check how it was in retail, so it ended up like that in the first version and has been like that since... As it happens, the SAA seems to have been red on retail so I'll change it in the tables accordingly. Thanks for pointing it out.

Here's the retail entry, if someone is interested.

Code: [Select]

; NOTE : most of the fields here are irrelevant and are only included so as not to break the parser
;        beam weapons are a very special case weapon
$Name:                          SAAA
$Model File:                    none ; laser1-1.pof
@Laser Bitmap:                  laserglow01
@Laser Color: 250, 30, 30
@Laser Length: 0.0
@Laser Head Radius: 0.60
@Laser Tail Radius: 0.60
$Mass:                          4.0
$Velocity:                      1000.0          ;; speed of the weapon (initially) -- may or may not change
$Fire Wait:                     5.0             ;; in seconds
$Damage:                        9
$Armor Factor:                  1.0
$Shield Factor:                 1.0
$Subsystem Factor:              1.0
$Lifetime:                      50.0            ;; How long this thing lives
$Energy Consumed:               0.30            ;; Energy used when fired
$Cargo Size:                    0.0             ;; Amount of space taken up in weapon cargo
$Homing:                        NO
$LaunchSnd:                     124          ;; The sound it makes when fired
$ImpactSnd:                     88        ;; The sound it makes when it hits something
+Weapon Range: 1500 ;; Limit to range at which weapon will actively target object
$Flags:                         ("Big Ship" "beam")
$Icon:                          icongun05
$Anim:                          LoadGun07
$Impact Explosion:              ExpMissileHit1
$Impact Explosion Radius:       10.0
$BeamInfo:
+Type: 3 ;; 0 - 4 are valid #'s
+Life: 3.5 ;; how long it lasts once the beam is actually firing
+Warmup: 1000 ;; warmup time in ms
+Warmdown: 1000 ;; warmdown time in ms
+Radius: 20.0 ;; muzzle glow radius in meters
+PCount: 12 ;; particles spewed every interval
+PRadius: 1.2 ;; particle radius
+PAngle: 65.0 ;; angle of the random "cone" where the particles are generated
+PAni: particleexp01 ;; particle ani
;; +Miss Factor: 2.4 2.0 1.5 1.25 1.0 ;; magic # - higher == miss more (only really applicable to type 0 and type 3 beams)
+Miss Factor: 6.0 5.0 4.0 3.0 1.5 ;; magic # - higher == miss more (only really applicable to type 0 and type 3 beams)
+BeamSound: 179 ;; the looping beam-firing sound
+WarmupSound: 182 ;; associated warmup sound
+WarmdownSound: 189 ;; associated warmdown sound
+Muzzleglow: thrusterglow01 ;; muzzle glow bitmap
+Shots: 3 ;; only used for TYPE 3 beams
+ShrinkFactor: 0.0 ;; what
+ShrinkPct: 0.0 ;; what percentage of max width we subtract per second
$Section: ;; one section of the beam (you can have up to 5)
+Width: 2.0 ;; width of the section
+Texture: beam-red ;; texture for this section
+RGBA Inner: 255 255 255 255 ;; rgba values (only for non-textured beam compiles)
+RGBA Outer: 150 150 150 10 ;; rgba values (only for non-textured beam compiles)
+Flicker: 0.1 ;; how much it flickers (0.0 to 1.0)
+Zadd: 2.0 ;; hehe
$Section: ;; one section of the beam
+Width: 6.0 ;; width of the section
+Texture: beam-red2 ;; texture for this section
+RGBA Inner: 160 160 0 255 ;; rgba values (only for non-textured beam compiles)
+RGBA Outer: 60 60 0 10 ;; rgba values (only for non-textured beam compiles)
+Flicker: 0.1 ;; how much it flickers (0.0 to 1.0)
+Zadd: 1.0 ;; hehe
$Section: ;; one section of the beam
+Width: 8.0 ;; width of the section
+Texture: beam-white ;; texture for this section
+RGBA Inner: 255 0 0 255 ;; rgba values (only for non-textured beam compiles)
+RGBA Outer: 60 0 0 10 ;; rgba values (only for non-textured beam compiles)
+Flicker: 0.1 ;; how much it flickers (0.0 to 1.0)
+Zadd: 0.0 ;; hehe

 

[666maslo666]

Not to mention also, but like the final explosion of the hecate here looks like crap. They've been like that for a while.

I had the same problem heres the thread http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,43945.0.html hope it helps 

[Zacam]

On a somewhat related note: While I was running tests on some changes, I accidentally ran my 3.6.9 with its options enabled but without the mediavp's selected.

The original shockwave actaully looks pretty damn decent AND fast (could probably use only a minor facelift). Not so sure about the beams, but the ones on Terran and Vasudan vessels don't look as terribly as I thought they would. Thrusters are set to amber afterburners for terran vessels (and no abtrails), so I'm sorta curious how/why they got changed. The engine glows.....well, it could go either way.

So, while we're looking at what we're updating, I definately recommend looking at what was and how the current engine handles it.
(If you already are, then well, you're already on top of it! )

[TrashMan]

Whatever engine glows get chosen one things is a must (IMHO) - they must be short. A half a mile long engine trail for a ship that moves at 10m/s is moronic to say the least..

EDIT: Taylors glows look beter to me for now..