[Mars]

First off, Qwer... although you may scorn canon as overly restrictive, and limiting creativity, it's a necessary evil I'm afraid, otherwise any argument could fly, and that would get pretty stupid... on the other hand, in a thread such as this, it is a little beyond its purpose.

Qwer By the time you get to capella most of the GTVA fleet had already been destroyed! Are you sure you played the game?

I was under the impression that the fleet was holding its own until the star got nuked.

Also we have cannon proof of a ravana taking out the collies fighter bay and disabling the collie. Also we have cannon proof that a sath jumped in and destroyed the collie !

The word is canon, and the Ravana did not take out the Collie's fighter bay, nor did it disable the Juggernaut, the Colossus started the mission that way, for whatever reason

Also we have canon proof that the shivans launched numerous cruisers and corvettes at the GTVA forces in an atempt to destroy the fleeing fleet.

True

Also if 200 freaking destroyers would of been involved the blasted GTVA would of been anihalated so fast it would of made your head spin.

Given that the SD Ravana managed to destroy the GTD Delecroix, the GTCv Lysander and damaged the rest of the warships in the 3rd Fleet, I'm not inclined to disagree.

Also since when the HELL do GTVA beam weaponry go anywhere near shivan weaponry?? Now this I have to see! First one of the most powerfull weapons available to you the player as a main gun to use on fighters and bommbers is the KAiser which is based "on extensive research into SHIVAN WEAPONS TECH" ! Also shivan beam cannons can do about 10 times the amount of damage GTVA beam cannons can so how the hell are they anywhere near equal. Thei have a 7second per shot time period and a god damn 5 second or 10 second recharge rate can remember exactly !

The god damn GTVA not only does less damage per second but it has less the half that fire time 3 or 4 seconds if i'm right and a recharge rate...are you ready....of 35 seconds for its most powerfull beam cannons. So you tell me how in god's name are these two weapons suposed to anywhere near equal in temrs or raw firepower and tech.

Actually, in a technical sense GTVA weaponry isn't that far behind the Shivans... look at the SVas compared to the SRed, or the Deimos compared to the Moloch. Recall that in the first stages of the Shivan incursion, the GTVA thought they were winning, in part because of the fact that their formerly defenseless warships could now go toe-to-toe with their Shivan counterparts, with several very notable exceptions (the Ravana).

The main advantage for the Shivans, it becomes clear, is their massive numbers, far more than their technology... and is it any wonder? They've been known to build ships capable of mass genocide for around 40 times the amount of time the Terrans or Vasudans have.

I can pretty much bet that it would take GTVA scientists and engeniers at least a decade to mach the current power of the shivan beam cannons and that is only posible because you can bet they are working with shivan tech or rather studiing shivan tech to achieve theyr goal.

These time estimates come from out of your ass I'm afraid... but I guess it works. Really we have no proof that GTVA beams and Shivan beams are the same technology. If we assume current GTVA beam tech is derived from the Hades destroyer, I suppose. Silent Threat really didn't explain that well though.

Also whre the hell did you get 100 jugs when the game states over 80 jugs. if it were anywhere near 100 it would state over 90 or 100 jugs.

And where did you get over 200 destroyers?? we dont see anywhere near that many destroyers in the game in fact we do not see anywhere near as many destroyers as the GTVA has thrown at the shivans.

Once again I'm inclined to agree

Better get your facts toghether since to me it seems like you smoked something you were not suposed to!

Depending on what it is, it can be quite good for you, reliving stress, and preventing heart attacks.

And for the love of god go check the FS wiki! It has all the cannon evidence about the game detailed enough ship descriptions as well as veteran coments, which seem the most conclusive and generaly agreed upon in the whole FS comunity since the time of the VBB.

The wiki is an excellent resource, the Ship section is quite good, it's the rest of it that needs work 

The bottom line is you are out dreaming with those kinds of figures.

Agreed...

I'm not saing that the shians dont have some 200 destroyers out there i'm just saing they are nowhere near the GTVA space or have ever engaged GTVA forces or they would of at least be mentioned in the game debriefings or something !

I think it's clear that the Shivans do have additional forces besides the Sathani, personally... the fact that a Ravana destroyer jumped in to the system beyond the nebula in Into the Lions Den should be taken as evidence.

[Qwer]

Mars - I'm not changing anything that is canon. Everything I've written above and now writing below is fully compatible (or at least I think so ) with what we've seen in FreeSpace. And I know we're making offtopic, but evolution of threats is unavoidable (at some point you could split the topic into original and "fs.pl vs HLP" ).

AlphaOne - GTVA has lost about 40 destroyers (about 2/3 of their forces) before Sathanas invasion. That means they'd have about 20 vs 200 Shivan ones (if we'll temporarily mark my conception as true), if Shivans have also spent over half of them on Sathanas protection we'll have 50-100 destroyers on our tails and GTVA forces can last about 72 hours. Let's take a look at your theory. If Shivans would have smaller regular forces (less destroyers and other ships) then GTVA wouldn't have so much problems and would probably take out at least one Sathanas which wasn't mentioned. That means your theory goes out. Also your theory about allmighty destroyers&juggs with lots of everything has got one defect - how would you explain so huge tech abyss beetwen corvettes&cruisers and destroyers&juggs? This doesn't make sense to me. Now GTVA weaponry: Kayser, Terran Mara and Sekhmet are product of merging GTVA and Shivan technology. Kayser is A LOT more powerful than Shivan lasers. This is because GTVA engineers merged some Shivan tech with some GTVA creating the most powerful GTVA fighter weapon. The same goes to Terran Mara (two times better than Shivan Mara) and Sekhmet (Nahema with a lot larger loadout). Don't forget other GTVA fighter weapons: Infyrno, Tornado, EMP Adv., Maxim, Morning Star. And since Shivan primary weapons are crap (yeah, crap, Shivan fighters depends mostly on secondary weapons which actually stands in little lower level than GTVA). Now about Shivan beam cannons I think you don't know what is LRed, TerSlash, SVas and other weapons. They've simply PHASES, phases based on amount of energy delivered to beam launcher and cannon's configuration, not cannons alone. Cannons are Terran, Vasudan and Shivan beam weapons. Your whole 7 life, 10 fire wait and 600 damage isn't because of Shivan cannon tech, but power and configuration. If it would be tech, Shivan cruisers and corvettes would be much more powerful but they aren't so that leaves you with both tech abyss and smaller beams' problem. And about GTVA beams, remember Mjolnir? Hyper-advanced beam platform. Next-generation prototype GTVA beam weaponry. It proves that GTVA technology gets more advanced than Shivan one (take a look at Mjolnir size).

GTVA were getting pwned by Shivans because they had little technology superiority and huge, HUGE number superiority. On the other hand GTVA had better tactics and pilots. By the end of FS2 campaign we've got tech superiority, addition of skills made us survive so long (72 hours).

BTW those 200 destroyers can be indirectly confirmed by Command Briefing in mission with Col's destruction where Command says that Shivans have got huge number superiority.

I checked FS Wiki and there was nothing about huge number of fighters and bombers on Demon and Ravana. The only thing I've found is about hundreds of fighters on Sathanas, but that note has no evidence in main campaign as we don't see hundreds of fighters deployed from Sath, don't read that in (command) (de)briefings and nothing about it is mentioned, so yeah, it's non-canon and I disagree with that.

Conclusion - altough there's no direct evidence for my theory, you can see there's no conflict beetwen it and canon FreeSpace things. So it has as much probability (or even more - holes I've pointed) as yours (yeah, your point of view is also theory). It's at first look funny and impossible, but when you get everything to one piece, it starts to make sense.

[aldo_14]

I always find it worth noting that the Shivans have a habit of upping the ante whenever it seems the GTVA is getting close.  In FS1, as we get the ability to target and break the shields of their ships, they deploy the Lucifer (admittedly, a gameplay chronology rather than a timeline one, as the Lucifer is there from the start in some capacity).  In FS2, the Terran fleet has flak and beams - then so do the Shivans.  The Terran fleet destroys the Ravana - the Shivans then deploy the Sathanas.  The GTVA destroys the Sath; the Shivans deploy 80, and destroy a star.  Whilst it's obviously speculative, I think there's some decent evidence for the supposition that the Shivans use a degree of proportionate force, whether by design or constraint (i.e. the bulk of their forces travelling from far away).

[NGTM-1R]

80 Sathanas doesn't really scan as "proportional force" to me. They could probably have induced the GTVA to take the course it did with as few as 10.

[aldo_14]

80 Sathanas doesn't really scan as "proportional force" to me. They could probably have induced the GTVA to take the course it did with as few as 10.

Well, a degree.  Perhaps proportionate was the wrong word to use.  What I mean is, they only up the ante to a relatively limited degree; imagine if FS1 had been against the Sathani fleet, or even a beam-equipped set of Ravanas.

[Bob-san]

As few as 2... the GTVA had nothing to contest with the Sathanas--not even the Big C could face one head-on. If the GTVA threw EVERY destroyer at a Sath, theyd probably lose a quarter of them for the first assult. Not to mention the GTVA's piss-poor tactices (like positioning the Big C in front of the Sathanas)...

[Qwer]

When Sath were reaching position by Capella assault on them would be suicide, when they were charging up their anti-star subspace rifts they were probably spending their whole energy on it making them vulnerable to attacks so Shivans surely gave them serious protection (else they'd be total idiots which is non-canon ).

[Depth_Charge]

Funny thing bout the Sath, its the same thing as the German Tiger tank.  one weak point, it is a$$

[Charismatic]

Hecate. Deimos.
Herc. Ares. Percious (sp? [the interseptor, not stealth]).
Ursa. Medusa? What was that bomber with the A.. that no one used?

[Fergus]

I'd just give the Mentu a small anti-cap beam right on the nose (above the small chunk that's taken out of it), so it's armed similarly to the Leviathan.  It just needs a little bit of balancing anti-capital ship wise, apart from that it's a perfectly capable cruiser.

[AlphaOne]

Well the fact is that by the time we get to capella and the subsequent evacuation of capella command actualy tells you that due to the heavy losses of the GTVA they can not provide too much help for you as you engage the shivans in order to protect the transports.

The GTVA could not made a dent on those sathany even if they wanted. Also I do believe it is said in one of the briefings that a ravana class destroyer managed to disable the collies fighterbay.


Also the GTVA does indeed have the mjolnir beam cannon but that thing is the size of a cruiser. It is indeed a very powerfull cannon perhaps more powerfull then its shivan counerparts but to mount it on a destroyer at least at current timeline would prove to be imposible.

Also let us not forget that the sathany has in its 4 forward beam cannons the same amount of power that the collie has on ist entire breadside beam cannon array.

Also remember that when you firts hear about the task force sent to take out the Ravana in fact the entire 3rd fleet you then hear how badly is was crippled by a single shivan destroyer. Now if the Ravana had not had a fighterbay comparable to that of a Hecate for example that blasted thing would of been taken out without loosing as much as a corvette.

Also when you enter the nebula the pilots talk about the fact that the only way those shivan fighters could of been in the nebula and survive is if they had a destroyer to operate from.

Also nice one about the Mentu! It's a capable cruiser but just needs some ac balancing or more aaaf weapons on it in order to produce something similar to the Aeoulus!

[Mars]

As few as 2... the GTVA had nothing to contest with the Sathanas--not even the Big C could face one head-on. If the GTVA threw EVERY destroyer at a Sath, theyd probably lose a quarter of them for the first assult. Not to mention the GTVA's piss-poor tactices (like positioning the Big C in front of the Sathanas)...

Apparently 3 destroyers will do quite nicely.

[General Battuta]

*sigh* Here we go again. 

[Harbinger of DOOM]

There will always be something available.

Look at the US Navy, it is rare to never that a Destroyer travels alone, it almost always has a number of other vessels along with it, as well as plane cover.

Well, in the present-day navies.... destroyers are small.
I think the "Destroyer" is really more of a Battleship/Carrier combo.

[Mars]

Goddamn... *smacks self* I knew that pardon the mental lapse.

Although, honestly, it's rare to see a single warship at all... when it does happen, you get things like the USS Cole.

[spartan_0214]

Here's a snippet on Destroyers:

In naval terminology, a destroyer is a fast and maneuverable yet long-endurance warship intended to escort larger vessels in a fleet or battle group and defend them against smaller, short-range attackers (originally torpedo boats, later submarines and aircraft).

As far as I can tell, Destroyers in the U.S. Navy are much like Corvettes in FS2. They're defense against short-range vessels like other Corvettes or are useful against fighters. FS2 Destroyers are meant to take out larger vessels such as Destroyers or a group of Corvettes.

Here's a snippet on Corvettes:

A corvette is a small, maneuverable, lightly armed warship, smaller than a frigate but larger than a coastal patrol craft. During the Age of Sail, corvettes were smaller than frigates and larger than sloops-of-war, usually with a single gun deck. Almost all modern navies use ships smaller than frigates for coastal duty, but not all of them use the term corvette (from the French corvair).

[Mars]

Ship classes change all the time... don't try too hard to classify.

[spartan_0214]

They do, but a little bit on the basis of the classes is required.

[Qwer]

As I've said before giving Mentu beam cannon is bad move, if you REALLY want to let it defend itself against capships, give it Stiletto II launcher, not crappy SVas that limits its abilities seriously and can't deal too much damage. Stilettos takes less place&energy than beam cannon and has got bigger range (not to mention low fire wait). It's AF cruiser, not capship-killer. Also giving it more AF would make it more expensive and limit its use like Aeolus (unless you low its armor).

AlphaOne - AFAIK first mission with Alpha 1 in Capella is just after Shivans have broken through blockade. It was said in briefing that Shivans damaged Col's fighterbay but nothing was mentioned about Ravana. Mjolnir is two times smaller than Fenris so Mjolnir-scale beams could be fitted on large AC desings (also weaker versions on Corvettes and Frigates). About taskforce remember that Ravana could have support of smaller ships (maybe even one Lilith = additional LRed). Taskforce could've failed because of this suprise - reinforcements which throws everything into chaos and makes GTVA to lose Delacroix, several fighter wings and few smaller capships.

[TrashMan]

GTVA has better fighters and fighter weapons. And they OWN shivans..that's why shivans throw so many fighters on your sorry ass.

So weven if the GTVA was far weaker regarding capships, strike squads of fighters and bombers (capship-killing squads) would even the odds a bit.
Especially given the fact that node blockades are like a trench war, where the node is the narrow point where the defender has a BIG advantage.