[AlphaOne]

Well not unless you are a shivan and have a sathanas at your disposal which can take out the entire fleet in less time then it takes to boil an egg!

Also qwer you managed to meke me play fs2 campaign again. this time i will pay more atention to the briefings and debriefings.

Also at the time of the criplyng of the 3-rd fleet there is no mention of the ravana beeing helped by any other warship. so unless you can bring evidence for your asumption it a pointless asmption.

Also the GTVA does indeed engage later on cruisers and corvettes posibly part of the ravana battlegroup but not at the time they sent the 3-rd fleet.

Also they knew very well what they were facing since they already lost a corvette to that thing.

[aldo_14]

GTVA has better fighters and fighter weapons. And they OWN shivans..that's why shivans throw so many fighters on your sorry ass.

So weven if the GTVA was far weaker regarding capships, strike squads of fighters and bombers (capship-killing squads) would even the odds a bit.
Especially given the fact that node blockades are like a trench war, where the node is the narrow point where the defender has a BIG advantage.

Problem is, the Sath easily punched through some of the biggest blockades in history.....I'm pretty sure the GTVA does use strike-squads of bombers; isn't that what the player does, after all?  Of course, fighter cover (even if relatively inferior) and AAAf adds a bit more trouble for said small-ship strike forces than you seem to be considering.

To be honest, I think it's very likely the Shivans actual abilities were toned down for balance; going by the actual stuff said in game, they should be nearly invincible.  but that isn't much fun

[Qwer]

AlphaOne - first Sathanas can't take out entire fleet in no time. Why? Because wise enemy won't concentrate its fleet to let Sath take it out. Also remember Sath has got concentrated firepower in front, beside this it's got only one LRed in back, if you take it out, Sath can be slowly beaten by large group of smaller ships (like Sobeks which in number of 3 can take it out in about 4 minutes). Altough there was no mention that Ravana was protected by cruisers, my "common" sense and logic says so. You also don't have evidence for your theory that Ravana defended itself alone.

EDIT: looks like our discussion is slowly finishing, our posts are getting shorter.

[AlphaOne]

You just do not get it do you?

I have evidence the game itself ! If the Ravana would of been aided by other capships then they would of been mentioned in either briefings or debriefings. WE have battles that ocurred that we do not see yet they are mentioned in the game as well as the ships and the casulaties and outcome and you can tell me that such a major battle with so much friendly losses would not be mentioned? If that is the case then you have a very twisted "common sense" !

As for the Sathanas forward facing beams firt of all you have to be able to get behind it. or even beside it. And you seem to forget that GTVA warships could not make a decent enough jump to save theyr lives what makes you think they can during a fully blown slaughter with damages apearing everywhere and no doubht inclueding theyr jump drives or whatever.

All mi asumptions and theories are based in one way or another on the game and what we see and hear happenes in the game. I do not go around saing that shivans had some 200 destroyers in GTVA space or near GTVA space without any sort of proof whatsoever. Sure its comon sense to believe that but since you can not prove it or even have a hint on them beeing anywhere near GTVA space you just dont say that it is true and can not be questioned.

The same goes for the Ravana in the nebula.

Sure the post are getting shorter simply beacause you just bring up the same old things in the same old manner even though I requested the samllest amount of evidence, and i dont meen you "common" sence since to me that equals zero. No ofence but im just stating the obvious. I want game proof hints in the game of those number anithing which  could sugest something like that!

Oh and on a side note I alsobelieve that the shivans have some 200 destroyers out ther hell even more but i just can not back that up with anithing in the  game so i do not claim it to be a verified fact.

[Charismatic]

Now that you mention the Mentu. My car looks like it. The hood is dented in the right spot, as well as a few other areas. I actually named my 2nd care (the one i have now) Mentu. It does remind me of one. Lol..

[ShivanSpS]

I'd just give the Mentu a small anti-cap beam right on the nose (above the small chunk that's taken out of it), so it's armed similarly to the Leviathan.  It just needs a little bit of balancing anti-capital ship wise, apart from that it's a perfectly capable cruiser.

The Mentu dont have a forward firing turret... but if you take a look in my GTVA Fleet weapons upgrate, the Mentu nows have a svas on both sides and work very well... look to all GTVA cruisers (Leviathan, Fenris, Aeolus, in my pack the Aten too), all have forward anti cap beam, and none of then have a side one... that why i decided for side anti cap beams on the Metu...

[Qwer]

AlphaOne - why would Command mention about every lose in both Shivan, NTF and GTVA side? They don't because pilots have to know only basics and they tell exact things only to boost morale (like Col blowing up NTD Andronicus and NTC Camisard) or tell about causalities, but only few (like GVC Andromeda and GTC Trafalgar, I doubt that'd be all if it comes to causalities, they've probably lost also destroyer else they wouldn't send so big replacement but didn't mention it to not low morale too much). Why would they mention exact number of forces defending Ravana? Important thing was fact that Ravana is alone and it's now easy target for bombing raid.

For the rest I'm saying what I think about that whole situation = THEORY, not "this is fact and you must agree with it blah blah blah". This is my point of view on things we've seen in FreeSpace so it doesn't need evidences, it only needs to be compatible with things that we are sure of. I've repealed all your objections (or at least I think so, I could've missed something ) so my theory can be true. Yours has got larger probability than mine (you're basing only on what you've seen ingame so it should be way more probable, but has few small holes like tech abyss). So I think we should end this discussion (unless you've got something else to point against my theory ).

BTW you've used more exclamation marks in this topic than me for one year.

[AlphaOne]

Well GTVA command does inform you of losses far oten that you remember. For example they inform you of the loss of the 3-rd battle group or rather its cripeling losses . In fact you get much intel on what ships have been lost as destroyers corvettes etc. Also by the time you get involved with the SOC and the GTVI you get much more intel then any other pilot lower in rank then you or higher in rank thenyou but which does not operate on SOC missions. In fact i can pretty much bet that you know more about some missions and force projection etc then some warship captains.

Of course there are tech gaps in mi theories but that is only because of the very limited amount of intel about one thing ore another. For example the Ancients were decades if not centuries ahead of the GTVA in terms of subspace tech.
Remember that the only way the GTVA managed to advance its subspace tech was by studiing ancient ruins in Altair. And the come along the shivans a much more advanced race in every way to the ancients hell even in terms of subspace tech they were decades if not centuries ahead of the ancients. So that add up to hom many decades or centuries ahead of the GTVA?

So mi point is this since we know that the shivans are owning GTVA in temrs of subspace the best we can do is guess and hope we are even partialy right.  Because to me the whole sathani beeing developed so big especialy for the pourpose of generating that subspace field seems rather unrealistic and sounds like something GTVA would do because of lack of suficiently advanced tech.

[aldo_14]

Offhand, GTVA informs you of key victories or losses rather than every specific ship being lost or destroyed.

[AlphaOne]

Yes agreed maibe you onli get key victories or defeats info but then again if the ravana would of been aided in any way i have no doubt that we would of known. Also if the GTVA would of had some 200 destroyers on its back yard I believe we would of known about them since well you were kinda flying SOC missions at the time.

[aldo_14]

Yes agreed maibe you onli get key victories or defeats info but then again if the ravana would of been aided in any way i have no doubt that we would of known. Also if the GTVA would of had some 200 destroyers on its back yard I believe we would of known about them since well you were kinda flying SOC missions at the time.

Well, why would you?  You're not planning missions or running C & C, you're a fighter jock.  So really they only need to give you information needed for your missions and a broad overview - 'we're losing in x and y but counterattacking in z'.  It's convenient, really, for Volition because the vagueness allows them to draw a far broader war than the game can show; you might only see one destroyer, but there can be tens of them out there (or even hundreds; the Sathanas being the largest shivan warship - if we apply admittedly anthrocentric logic - implies it's also the least numerous).

That said, I don't believe the Ravana was assisted; I think the very point of the nebula missions up to that point were setting it up as the Shivans fiercest weapon  (to be gazzumped later by the Sathanas), and that'd be diluted by having it supported by other Shivan capships.  IMO it's always worth remember that the what the Shivans are has to be diluted to make the game playable; just compare the Maras' actual abilities versus the comments of the pilots when you first encounter them.

[Iron Wolf]

Upgrade the Orion in the following fashion:

1) Rip out it's reactor, replace it with a Vasudan one. Maybe the ones that go on the Hetasphut or something.
2) Change all beam cannons to their Vasudan counter parts. (Bvas, Vslash)
3) replace the "Terran Turrets" with more flak and perhaps some M-S, Maxims, or even subachs
4) Add some more anti-fighter beams.

Depending on the cost, I would also use that handy collapsed core molybdenum (which would be an increase in HP)

For the Hecate, simply again replace ll beam cannons to their Vasudan counterparts, and replace the forward slasher with an Bvas.

Deploy the Hecates with Orions. The Hecates provide fighter cover, Orions punch holes. add a liberal amount of Deimoses for escort, and perhaps if you can get production up and running again, Aeoluses.

Deimos: Perhaps replace the slashers with small Vasudan beams? Also, considering the larger borders the GTVA has, perhaps add a small hangar bay on it, decrease the speed, and call in a "patrol Corvette" designed to work far from GTVA battlegroups.

[Qwer]

1. I bet all GTVA desings have already got their reactors replaced with Vasudan counterparts. How else would you explain fact that Orion is almost the same as Hatshepsut (it only has weaker AF weaponary)?
3,4. No flaks/AAAs, they take too much place which is already fully spent on that destroyer. However MSes and Maxims would be very useful.
5. Replacing weaponary on warship isn't too hard, but if you replace armor to newer one then your Orion is completly new desing (not to mention it costs a lot, better spend money on more Hatshepsuts).
6. You won't be able to set pernamently another BVas on Hecate, it's carrier not destroyer and would suffer serious reactor overloads.
7. Oryginal Aeoluses aren't good idea, they're very expensive, however if you'd rearm it with for example 2XAAA, 4XStandardFlak and 6XMaxim they'd be very good and not so expensive AF coverage. Also sending Hecate to battle isn't good idea IMHO, better keep it outside it and only deploy fighters to help Orion.
8. Idea of fighterbay is interesting, but take a note that it'll decrease Deimos' armor seriously. Look at Deimos and Hecate. Both of them are warships of similar age. There are only two differences: size and fighterbay (the same goes to Hecate and Hatshepsut). IMHO better would be pair Deimos+small carrier with weak weaponary but two hangarbays with two fighter squadrons. Deimos goes to battle and carrier sends fighters to cover him.

[Iron Wolf]

7. Oryginal Aeoluses aren't good idea, they're very expensive, however if you'd rearm it with for example 2XAAA, 4XStandardFlak and 6XMaxim they'd be very good and not so expensive AF coverage. Also sending Hecate to battle isn't good idea IMHO, better keep it outside it and only deploy fighters to help Orion.

I always hear the Aeolus is expensive. What acks this up? I've never read about it being expensive anywhere.

1. I bet all GTVA desings have already got their reactors replaced with Vasudan counterparts. How else would you explain fact that Orion is almost the same as Hatshepsut (it only has weaker AF weaponary)?

Hetasphut is longer and has more hit points. Ergo, it must have a higher tonnage then the Orion. So, it needs a Vasudan reactor to fire the guns and move it's considerable bulk around.

I'll take that excuse simply becuase there is nothing to back up your statement about Vasudan reactors. A simple "If so, they would have overloaded by now" doesn't work.

8. Idea of fighterbay is interesting, but take a note that it'll decrease Deimos' armor seriously. Look at Deimos and Hecate. Both of them are warships of similar age. There are only two differences: size and fighterbay (the same goes to Hecate and Hatshepsut). IMHO better would be pair Deimos+small carrier with weak weaponary but two hangarbays with two fighter squadrons. Deimos goes to battle and carrier sends fighters to cover him.

I'm thinking of a Deimos in an area far from any carrier of any sort. cut the size down to one sqaudron, maybe to wings.

More interesting, just add a small bay for repairing/ reconfiguring maybe two fighters, and attach the rest to the outside with docking points.

[Mars]

The Orion's armor has probably been replaced already... during the Great War the Lucifer's beam cannons could chew an Orion in seconds, during the Second Great War however, Orions have taken multiple hits from heavy beam cannons without going down... I think it makes more sense that the Orion now has beam-resistant armor than the Shivans toning the beam cannons down.

[AlphaOne]

That would be very dangerous ! Atached fighters would only prove to be a danger to both pilots and the ship itself since when exploding if hit mi a bomb or something they would not only blow up because they are vitualy unproteceted but they would cause significat damage to the mother ship.

The Hatshepsut actualy has 50% more hp then any other terran warship. It has 150.000 hp compared to the Hecates and Orion 100.000!

Also by upgrading the orion in such a drastic manner would only produce a newer version of the same ship so basicly an Orion MK II ! While that would be a good idea in mi opinion it would not be the best course of action. If you really want to have a MK II Orion the you have to redesign some of its key aspects. So basicly make the new ship perform better then the Original at its original pourpose but reduce its weaknesses. In this case it would be its lack of aaaf weaponry. Keep in mind that producing a ship that has both excelent aaaf defences such as the Deimos or the Hecate and the overwhealming ac firepower of the Orion would be problematic at best and undesirable from a game balance point of view.

A newer version of the Orion would have to be able to fend for itself agains fighters and bommbers a lot better then the first one ut still need fighter support in order to really make it out alive from a fighter/bommber assault. This is something that the firts Orion can not do that is survive long enough on its own against fighter bommber attack's.  

Hell even medical frigates can do a better job of covering they large behinds then the Orion.

[spartan_0214]

I'm thinking of a Deimos in an area far from any carrier of any sort. cut the size down to one sqaudron, maybe to wings.

More interesting, just add a small bay for repairing/ reconfiguring maybe two fighters, and attach the rest to the outside with docking points.

Meh, just leave the corvette alone. Corvettes are designed to be in either blockades or "combat groups", typically assigned to escort (a) Destroyer(s).

[Mongoose]

The Orion's armor has probably been replaced already... during the Great War the Lucifer's beam cannons could chew an Orion in seconds, during the Second Great War however, Orions have taken multiple hits from heavy beam cannons without going down... I think it makes more sense that the Orion now has beam-resistant armor than the Shivans toning the beam cannons down.

To be fair, the Galatea did withstand 4 or 5 Lucifer hits before it finally went down, and the Lucifer's beams weren't exactly your standard SReds.  I don't think an Orion fares any better against a Ravana bringing two LReds to bear.  (Note that I don't know how the SSL compares to the LRed, but the FSPort would be the most convenient place to look for that information.)

[Commander Zane]

The fact that it does all that damage in that single shot rather than in accumulated time?

[Mars]

Huh... I was wrong... the Orion can take 5 hits from the LRed, and 7 hits from the SSL, and they fire at the same rates.

On the other hand the Ravana can only take 4 hits from a BGreen... so that may be why I was confused.... the Terrans aren't better armored, they're better armed by far.