[spartan_0214]

Did someone perhaps stumble onto this information, or is it first-hand knowledge (i.e. REPROGRAMMING THE MISSION?!)

jk aobut the CAPS

[Mobius]

AHA! Volition didn't want the Psamtik to warp in near the node or there'd be an... interesting collision with the Sathanas.

We know that, but the disturbance idea always worked well. It makes sense...maybe the Ancients decided to add this kind of feature to the Knossos, since seems that everyone can jump near normal jump nodes without interferences.

[Goober5000]

The disturbance certainly didn't stop the Carthage, Dahshor, Alexandria, Monitor, Fortune, Loyola, Danton, Colossus, or Renenet from jumping near the portal.

I personally think they just needed an excuse to avoid a collision with the Sathanas, as Mustang said.

[Dark Hunter]

I think I read somewhere that intra-system jumps take very little power, while inter-system jumps require tons of energy, hence why inter-system drives weren't mounted on fighters at first. This would mean that jump drives would only need to be recharged after an inter-system jump. I phrased that badly. The recharge time would only be noticeable after an inter-system jump.

I can't ever remember where I read that though. It isn't in the techroom, and I don't think it's in the ReferenceBible (that is considered canon, right?), so it was probably a non-canon source.

[jr2]

I think I read somewhere that intra-system jumps take very little power, while inter-system jumps require tons of energy, hence why inter-system drives weren't mounted on fighters at first. This would mean that jump drives would only need to be recharged after an inter-system jump. I phrased that badly. The recharge time would only be noticeable after an inter-system jump.

I can't ever remember where I read that though. It isn't in the techroom, and I don't think it's in the ReferenceBible (that is considered canon, right?), so it was probably a non-canon source.

It's from

About the fighter intersystem drives, they didn't know how to make those work for fighters until they analyzed a Shivan ambush.  (FS1)

Jump points are intra-system, whereas you can jump almost anywhere inter-system with your jump drive.

I think you switched "intra" and "inter" there.  Think of interstate vs. intrastate highways.

  You're absolutely right.  of course  Fixed now.

[Prophet]

Another thing I was thinking about was gravity. We know for a fact that intra-system jumps require the presence of a gravity field. That restricts them inside star systems.

In the very first mission the vasudan evac transports are meeting with the Psamtik quite far from the planet. This left them open for attack, and did result in some casualties. Why was this? Was it because command didn't wish to risk jumping a destroyer too close to a strong gravity well, such as a planet? And was it because the jump itself was dangerous, or that the destroyer would be othervise vulnerable near a strong gravity well (in orbit of a planet).
(Of course we know the reason was to give the player some stupid babysitting task to begin with.)

I think it's both. For a large vessel, the presence of a planet would greatly reduce maneuverability and tactical options (back against the wall). But would also present danger when subspace is used. Possibly because the danger of misjump (too close to the planet) or that the drive itself doesn't like too much gravity (we know they are affected by it).

Shivans propably don't have this problem since they seemed quite happy by the Capella star. GTVA vessels never went near any star, yes?

I personally think they just needed an excuse to avoid a collision with the Sathanas, as Mustang said.

For that, they could have had the Psamtik arrive on the other side of the portal. The real reason was have another massive expensive powerful warship destroyed in seconds. I hate that. It's wrong. I miss FS1 battles where the capships felt powerful and colossal. In FS2 they just get them killed like they're going out of fashion. There aren't any battles, ships just get destroyed.

[Wobble73]

Shivans propably don't have this problem since they seemed quite happy by the Capella star. GTVA vessels never went near any star, yes?

We don't know how close to the star they actually were, (sense of scale problems), however, they could have jumped in from further away and approached the star. Don't forget, they used their subspace weapon thingy on the Capella star, that could have sucked all the gravity from the star which allowed them to jump, (and thus blowing up the star as it flung itself apart due to lack of gravity). The reason a few of the Sathanas didn't jump out??? Maybe there was some residual gravity pockets and therefore they couldn't jump, or maybe the other Sathanas arrived earlier and fed on the stars gravity and there wasn't enough for the late-comers. only knows!

[Mustang19]

From the briefing of Surrender, Belisarius:

"Because these transports do not have jump drives, you must protect the convoy until a recovery ship arrives."

So they could have jumped out near the planet, they were just too cheap to buy a jump drive or maintain one they already had. There's no canonical evidence that gravity effects jumping; this is a Derelict idea. I don't see how gravity would effect subspace, it's a whole nother dimension.

[Prophet]

I did not forget that about the briefing. And I'm not denying Psamtik couldn't have jumped to extract the civilians closer to the planet. I'm just wondering why it didn't do so. It probably would be easier to jump out of a gravity well, than in to it. Like jumping on to a boat, and jumping off from a boat. And there is canonical evidence that subspace drives are effected by gravity. I said so in my previous post.

[BlueFlames]

I think the problem in "Surrender, Belisarius" was that the transports needed to flee the planet, but were incapable of jumping themselves, and no recovery vessels were available at the time the mission started.  If the Psamtik had larger problems to be concerned with, of course it wasn't just going to immediately jump to the transports' position.  By the time it was available for the recovery operation, the transports had already put a fair bit of distance between themselves and the planet.

If you want to bring up technical details again, it's worthy to note that it's very difficult to make a mission occur near a planet in retail FS2, given that you can only stretch the planetary background images so much before they start to look downright ugly, and you have to do a lot of scripting to even begin to simulate things like re-entry dangers and ships hiding behind the planet/moons.  Heck, you really couldn't even simulate significant amounts of movement relative to the planet, since you couldn't/can't adjust the background on the fly.

While it's nice to have a description of how subspace drives work, and I've given myself a rough outline to use in missions, the fact of the matter is, it's fictional technology that's used as a plot device.  Volition wasn't always consistant in how they used it, because the plot demanded it be used in different ways.  For example, despite decades of advances in subspace and navigational technology, the Psamtik still managed to miss its mark by 9000 meters in the nebula, so that they'd be in perfect position to be annihilated by Sathanas number two, and it's never clear when fighters can make intersystem subspace jumps versus when they have to make intrasystem subspace jumps.

Volition FRED'er:  "Yo!  You said the Psamtik should get shot down by the second Sathanas here, but when that Sathanas jumps in, it needs several thousand meters of glide-distance from the second Knossos."
FS2 Storyline Director:  "The....ummm....subspace disturbance of the portal.....errr.....disrupts the Psamtik, so they're 9000 meters off the mark."
Volition FRED'er:  "That's weak and contrived, and you should be shot where you stand."
FS2 Storyline Director:  "You're weak and contrived, and I can fire you where you stand.  Suspend their disbelief, or perish!"
Volition FRED'er:  "*Sigh*  Nine-thousand meters it is...."

While there may be less hate and malice in the real version, I've no doubt that that kind of scene played out a number of times, with the topic of subspace at its core.  I'm sure many user-made campaigns have had such discussions between team members, or between the lone author's inner FRED'er and story writer.

BlueFlames' Split Personality #1:  "Yo!  It's going to take for-freaking-ever for this convoy to cover the thirty kilometers back to the node they entered the area through!"
BlueFlames' Split Personality #2:  "The crews can.....ummm.....apply more power to his subspace drive to.....errr.....jump out far from the node."
BlueFlames' Split Personality #1:  "That's weak and contrived, and you should be shot where you stand."
BlueFlames' Split Personality #2:  "You're weak and contrived, and I don't think you fully comprehend the implications of your proposed course of action.  Suspend their disbelief, or perish!"
BlueFlames' Split Personality #1:  "*Sigh*  'We need more power, Scotty,' it is...."

Actually, if the Volition version played out anywhere near like my version, there was more hate and malice involved, but that's neither here nor there.

The point is, sometimes you can come up with a nice, cushy, consistant explanation for why something is the way it is.  Other times you just need to accept the plot device for what it is, so that you can move on.

[Goober5000]

For that, they could have had the Psamtik arrive on the other side of the portal. The real reason was have another massive expensive powerful warship destroyed in seconds.

I stand semi-corrected. It's a combination of both.  The Sathanas could have turned around 180 degrees to nuke the Psamtik sitting on the other side of the portal, but that would have been dumb move from a plot/dramatic standpoint.

I hate that. It's wrong. I miss FS1 battles where the capships felt powerful and colossal. In FS2 they just get them killed like they're going out of fashion. There aren't any battles, ships just get destroyed.

Eh... I disagree with your characterization of FS2.  That sounds like Inferno -- the Diablo arrives, and gets taken out in the very next mission.  In FS2, it takes five missions from the arrival of the first Sathanas to its destruction.  Furthermore, the Psamtik is the only Hatshepsut destroyed in the entire main campaign, and the situation is probably meant to evoke a similar feeling to the destruction of the Galatea in FS1.

that could have sucked all the gravity from the star which allowed them to jump, (and thus blowing up the star as it flung itself apart due to lack of gravity)

That's the exact opposite of the way a supernova works.  Supernovas occur because the star collapses under intense gravitational pressure when there is nothing to counteract the gravity.  If all gravity in a star were neutralized, as you say, the star would lose cohesion and dissolve in a dramatic, but very un-catastrophic way.  It probably wouldn't create a shockwave and it certainly wouldn't create any new elements.

And there is canonical evidence that subspace drives are effected by gravity. I said so in my previous post.

You are correct, there is canonical evidence; but "because I said so" is a very poor argument. It's very likely to cause someone to call you out as a n00b who makes random unsubstantiated claims.  Provide supporting evidence next time... something like "The presence of an intense gravitational field is required, prohibiting travel beyond the boundaries of a star system." from the Subspace entry in the tech database.

[Prophet]

@ Goob:

We know for a fact that intra-system jumps require the presence of a gravity field. That restricts them inside star systems.

To me that seems like a clear enough reference to something that is common knowledge and the most important thing we know about hyperspace technology.

And I don't mean just friendly losses. At that point in the campaign you have seen multiple destroyers and corvettes go down with little effort. The moment you see the Sathanas arrive you think "meh, another destroyer bits the dust...". When you should think "oh noes! satahnus merde! what can i do to help psamtik? where are my wingmen? **** i need bombers! yes! good command pull psamtik out of here. what? recharge jump drives? oh noes shivan corvettes are coming!  where are my bombers nonono!" (this happening over several minutes)

@BlueFlames

Of course I understand why it was really done so, I'm not that detached from reality. I was wondering why it was so in FS universe terms. Laziness of Volition FREDers hasn't prevented good discussions (debates even) before. You could have just said that you disagree and I would have left it at that.
Höntti...

[S-99]

One thing this reminds me of is when an enemy ship is jumping out and you destroy it as it's going into subspace
The pile of debris will probably travel in subspace for a short bit before going out.

[NGTM-1R]

There must be some kind of restrictions on subspace drive technology we don't know about; otherwise there is simply no reason for half of the battles in FS to take place where they do. But we don't know what those restrictions are, so it's kind of every man for himself in that.

[Goober5000]

@ Goob:

We know for a fact that intra-system jumps require the presence of a gravity field. That restricts them inside star systems.

To me that seems like a clear enough reference to something that is common knowledge and the most important thing we know about hyperspace technology.

Uh huh.  Well guess what.  We know for a fact that all Vasudans are vegetarians.  That's common knowledge, and the most important thing we know about Vasudan dietary preferences.

See?  I can make unsupported claims too.  It doesn't matter if they're true or not, they're still unsupported.  If someone asks you to back up your claims, you need to provide evidence.  "Because everyone knows it" isn't good enough.

And I don't mean just friendly losses. At that point in the campaign you have seen multiple destroyers and corvettes go down with little effort. The moment you see the Sathanas arrive you think "meh, another destroyer bits the dust...". When you should think "oh noes! satahnus merde! what can i do to help psamtik? where are my wingmen? **** i need bombers! yes! good command pull psamtik out of here. what? recharge jump drives? oh noes shivan corvettes are coming!  where are my bombers nonono!" (this happening over several minutes)

You should think "Holy crap!  There's more than one of them!  The GTVA is sooooo dead..." or something similar.

[jr2]

How about "Holy crap!  How many are there?  This is gonna take forever; I might get a blister on my trigger finger..."

[Prophet]

Uh huh.  Well guess what.  We know for a fact that all Vasudans are vegetarians.  That's common knowledge, and the most important thing we know about Vasudan dietary preferences.

See?  I can make unsupported claims too.  It doesn't matter if they're true or not, they're still unsupported.  If someone asks you to back up your claims, you need to provide evidence.  "Because everyone knows it" isn't good enough.

Earth orbits sun. Do I have to get quotes of detailed scientific calculations to prove myself? No, because people accept my wild claim because they have heard it many times before and also think that is how it is. Should someone say they he/she does not understand and that the matter is unfamiliar to him/her, then of course I would explain it and get sufficient proof from a credible source.
Should someone start calling me a heretic because I didn't come to them with piles of books and scientists, I would ignore them and move on.

So to end this. You are correct as always and I was a stupid, stupid man and will now retreat to the desert to live out my remaining days in solitude so that I may never again pollute the minds of my peers with hearsay and unconfirmed rumours.

You should think "Holy crap!  There's more than one of them!  The GTVA is sooooo dead..." or something similar.

The anticlimax of what was the destruction of the first Sathanas in the mid stages of the game, I was dead sure I'd see more of them (or something more powerful).

[jr2]

Oh, really?  So, a wormhole is...?  Of course, a wormhole might not be a subspace tunnel, I dunno.

[S-99]

Subspace nodes that go to other systems pretty much act like a wormhole. Wormholes let you cross space by traveling 0 distance. Of course in real space you would have travelled 0 distance to go light years. Being inside the sol node/wormhole it'd take about 7 minutes through to get to earth by traveling 0 distance in real space, the real distance crossed is that of what you did in subspace Wormholes are fun.

[Snail]

I like to think that Prophet is right, but there's no canon evidence to the claim that gravity is needed for a subspace jump. Put it this way. At one point, practically everyone believed that Earth was flat. Does that mean it is flat? No. The notion that it is flat is not true, as we now know. Someone from * could come down here and say that gravity is needed for a jump. Then you could say anything you want. But just because everyone believes something doesn't actually mean its true.

* - not takashi