Poll

What is your favorite destroyer?

GTD Orion
GTD Hecate
GVD Typhon
GVD Hatshepsut
SD Demon
SD Ravana
SD Lucifer
GTD Hades

Author Topic: Favorite Destroyer  (Read 18982 times)

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Offline MT

  • 26
actualy the Hatsheepsuit is the second stronget GTVA destroyer in the game with 150.000 HP it has 50% more hp then the Hecate and it has a lot more powerfull beams overall with decent aaaf firepower. But i voted for the Orion I mean whenever i see one of those things i'm like "So beautiful...so terifiing" Man that this is the king of the destroyers. Well maybe except for the Ravana.

But for a 60+ years old design it is still the most powerfull destroyer in the GTVA and by the looks of it it has an asured future in the GTVA since its huge RAW firepower is second to none in the GTVA. Aside from the Ravana there is no destroyer out there that can really match the Orion.

Wrong, the HP of the Hatshepsut is 13500, not 15000.

The Terrans need a replacement for the Orion in post Capella, which by then most existing Orions would have been lost along with the rest of the fleet. The Hecate is decent (note: not exceptional) as the "carrier" type of destroyer sized ships, but a "battleship" type to complement it is needed, after the Orions.

If not, then the Terrans should build a modified version of the Deimos with 2 BGreens and 2 slash beams but with reduced anti fighter defenses to provide anti-capship fire support.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 08:18:09 am by MT »

  
The Hecate is fine. What really matters is the fighter/bomber complement. Destroyers are mainly plot elements, just a squadron of bombers can do more damage than a destroyer firing all beams.

What they really need to do is scrap those TC-TRI cargo containers and turn them into hangers, so those flimsy Tritons become aircraft carriers.

 

Offline MT

  • 26
The Hecate is fine. What really matters is the fighter/bomber complement. Destroyers are mainly plot elements, just a squadron of bombers can do more damage than a destroyer firing all beams.

What they really need to do is scrap those TC-TRI cargo containers and turn them into hangers, so those flimsy Tritons become aircraft carriers.

Only if the pilots are Alpha 1!  :D

 

Offline Desert Tyrant

  • 27
  • Meh.
The Hecate's best firing arc allows it to be able to fire four IIRC.  The two forward beams can stirke at a ships rear, while the broadside beams can slash down and hit the front.  It still mystifies me that the Hecate can be threatned by a singlar Moloch, espcially with how many fighters a Hecate can hold.

 

Offline J.P.

  • 26
    • http://www.omegadigital.org/
When I voted I was thinking more like an artist rather than thinking about firepower. The best art design for a destroyer would have to be the Orion. Hatshepsut comes in second, if only the model was done better and looked more like the concept. The Demon has to be the next best destroyer, again, because of it's design. It looks the most spikey and shivan-like than all of them.

You guys notice that they improved on the shivan and vasudan ship design in fs2, but not the terrans? The terrans got less angular, which I hated. For me this is how it goes.

Terran: Chunky, angular, industrial, mechanical.

Vasudan: Organic and smooth. Like bones almost.

Shivans: Spikes. Curved yet angular.

Of course it might make sense that the terrans get less angular because Vasudans have something to do with designing some of these ships.

-J.P.

 

Offline Desert Tyrant

  • 27
  • Meh.
I would say frigate. The Iceni's armament is too strong for it to be a corvette.

Although how would we class a frigate? A corvette that has sacrificed anti-fighter armament in order to power heavier beam cannons?




The thing I find odd about the Iceni is the fact it has better sub-light acceleration, yet has heavier armor and main cannons.  And as much as the Iceni's anti-fighter weapons are derided, they are good enough to cover the ship while it hauls ass toward the jump node.  It is good enough to also help it's escorts finish off a fighter attack, and we most definately know what happens when a crusier gets in front of the Iceni. 

As far as the Shivan Destroyers go, I liked the Lucifer most.  Gotta love ships of death. 

 

Offline AlphaOne

  • !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • 210
Well after capella the GTVA will be very hard pressed to find a replacement for the old Orion class. I mean each and every Orion destroyer out there is an extremely powerfull asset which they can no longer afford to decomission. Also The Orion class is THE simbol of pride and power the terrans have in fact the last one ! It would be a HUGE morale and pshicologycal blow for the GTVA to decomission the Orion at this stage.

Also unless the terrans can somehow bring forth a destroyer of equall value in terms of raw firepower in which to put all of they pride and hopes and dreams the Orion will most likeli not be decomisioned.

Also fighters and bommbers are good and powerfull but when you cant take them to the battlegield and deploy them you have a big problem. Also please note that by the time you can take out a Ravana in just bommbers you will also be submited to countless attack by its own fighter bommber squadrons. And this is where the big guns of the destroyers come in they can ensure that the battle is over that much faster.

As for the Hecate well lets just say that not even a Deimos or a Sobek can be threatened so much by a shivan corvette like the Hecate. That ship other then carryng fighters is useless. It's so weak in terms of raw firepower i would much rather have a deimos beside me . At least the deimos can eat fighters/bommbers for breakfast and still have room for the mothership in this case a destroyer or a corvette.
Die shivan die!!
Then jumps into his apple stealth pie and goes of to war.What a brave lad....what a brave lad say the ladies in red.
 

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Offline Desert Tyrant

  • 27
  • Meh.
The Hecate, in a scrap, is good enough to really knock up even a destroyer.  (Demon Vs. Hecate.)  The Hecate is a CARRIER, not  the Battleship/Carrier Hybrid that we all know and love in the Orion.  Plus the Hecate boast far superior anti-fighter defenses. 

The Hecate is far from useless.

 

Offline AlphaOne

  • !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • 210
Well the Hecate does have much better AAAf defences when compared to other destroyers in game but all to often you are calle upon to help a Hecate because its AAAF defences simply arent good enough. As I said the Hecate is a good carrier but it should not be anywhere near the front line. For front line duty and force projection you need a cmbination of Orion and Deimos or Hashesut and Sobek or Deimos. Or several Deimos/sobek + Hecate. But i believe that the first 2 variants are cheaper since they would require a lot less ships to achieve the same goal.
Die shivan die!!
Then jumps into his apple stealth pie and goes of to war.What a brave lad....what a brave lad say the ladies in red.
 

(\_/)
(O.o)
(> < ) 

This is Bunny . Copy  Bunny  into your signature to help him on his way to world domination!

 

Offline Desert Tyrant

  • 27
  • Meh.
The Hecate can defend well, even in an anti-cap situation.  I hate it when the Hecate gets a bad-rep for cap fire against crusers, despite the fact both times the Aquataine engaged a Corvette, they were in a NEBULA.  Scanners and gun comps were impaired.  I still state that a Hecate could cream a Moloch in a stand-up fight that was not in the nebula.  PLus the fighter+bomber thing helps in it's favour.  The Hecate is raather unfairly derided.  (Hell, in my anti-cap test, the Hecate beat a Typhon.)  Granted, the Orion is much better in this role.  ALso, the Orion needs some durn flak, ASAP.

 

Offline Excalibur

  • 28
  • Forsee a new beginning.
When I first saw the Hades, I thought " That is the worst ship I have ever seen!" ie the shape, but especially the colour.

I voted Orion by the way, because it is stonger than the rest and is Terran - all the browny coloured ships have a Vasudan feel about them. Nothing against Vasudans, I like the Hatchepsut over the Hecate.


EDIT: Are the BFGreens used on any of the ships? I first thought the Colossus had them but on closer inspection it only had BGreens. That is ridiculous, since they only do 3000 or so damage while BFG's do 4500 and BFR's do 8000. (something like that)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 12:00:33 am by Excalibur »
His legacy will last until the beginning.

 
I think we're hitting on a difference in design intent here.

I always like looking at real-world naval vessels when drawing comparisons, so let's have a peek at any given battleship versus any given aircraft carrier.  I'm not sure if you guys have noticed, but even though the battleships have enormous guns and would clearly win in a direct engagement, aircraft carriers have totally obsoleted battleships.  Why?  Coupling reconnaisance (from patroling aircraft from the carrier or other ships in the area) and radar, it isn't necessary for the carrier to enter the battleship's range.  It's tempting to say that replacing big guns with huge missile batteries, but missile systems are compact enough to be placed on smaller warships (i.e. destroyers), so there's really no need for some huge, hulking craft designed for direct engagement.

In FreeSpace, as fighter and bomber technology continues to improve, I foresee decreasing emphasis being placed on direct firepower, in favor of additional fighter and bomber capacity.

Just for giggles, let's consider a wargame scenario, where an Orion and a Hecate enter opposite sides of a star system.  Assuming the ratio of escort fighter to recon craft to bomber are kept the same, the Hecate has 50% more recon fighters to deploy, meaning that they are quite likely to spot the Orion first, but let's suppose that they receive word about each other at exactly the same time.  Immediately, the Orion starts to either launch bombers or fighters, depending on whether they want to start on offense or defense.  On the other side of the system, the Hecate, having greater launch capacity begins launching bombers and escort fighters.  In addition to its superior anti-fighter armaments, the Hecate will have escort fighters in position by the time the Orion's bombers arrive.  The Orion, on the other hand, is going to have warheads sticking out of its hull in very short order.  (You could argue, here, that the Orion could choose to launch fighters before bombers, but they're unlikely to match the Hecate's ability to launch escort fighters, and they're going to have zero capacity to attack the Hecate, and if you can't get on the offensive, you can't win a fight.)

You might posit that the Orion could try jumping to the Hecate's location to turn the tables, but once again, superior fighter and bomber forces are going to win the day, as the Orion is going to be neutered in mere minutes.  What's more, by the time an Orion is capable of jumping to the Hecate's position, the Hecate can jump to a new location, and then we're back to square one.  Even with big, flippin' beams becoming standard equipment on large warships, the universe is becoming a fighter/bomber pilot's paradise.

The issue of corvettes came up, and again, I refer to real-world navies.  Removing fighters from the equation, even with a two-inch gun and some kind of lightwieght surface-to-surface missile system, in a direct engagement, a naval destroyer is going to kick the crap out of an aircraft carrier.  Current weapon systems are just ridiculously powerful, and there's not really an armoring technique that's both viable and effective.  Seriously, if you double a carrier's weight just adding armor plating to it, so that it can take multiple hits from surface-to-surface missiles, all you're likely to do is save your enemy the trouble of sinking your carrier. 

Likewise, there's not a really good defense against beam cannons, if you actually put yourself in a position to be fired upon by one, so as a warship's commander, your goal is to avoid being put in such a position, while directing fighters and bombers toward your target or pursuer.  While I'm no expert on the subject, I'm pretty sure that the number of direct naval engagements has been steadily declining on a per-conflict basis since World War II, where aircraft really started to play a significant role in naval combat.  Naval destroyers exist both to provide support for ground forces and to keep submarines away from carriers and other strategic targets.

In the FreeSpace universe, I see technology moving space combat into a realm even closer present-day naval combat.  I see the TAG missile system being used to allow corvettes to target enemy vessels from ridiculously long range, allowing fighters to take over a bomber's role in a pinch.  I foresee the destroyer class, as defined by the Orion and Typhon being phased out entirely, in favor of a dedicated carrier class, while corvettes move into a defense and long-range support role.  As hinted at in the Deimos' tech room entry, I doubt that cruisers will have a role in the future of FreeSpace, unless they can integrate some type of stealth technology that isn't viable for ships any larger than cruiser-class.  Even at that, though, since first-generation TAG technology can overcome stealth tech, I think cruisers are just dead.

Anyway, all that chat about the Hecate and Orion are nice, but the three BVas beams on the Hatshepsut make a stronger broadside than the Orion has (which mixes BGreens and TerSlash beams), and its fighter compliment is comparable to a Hecate.  All told, I think that if Admiral Khafre and Admiral Petrach had a showdown, it'd start with Khafre stating something along the lines of, "Bite my well-tanned, exoskeletal ass," and it will end with appropriate results to back up the smack talk.  Vasudans have superior equipment, and though it'd take an autopsy to find them, they've probably got positively massive testicles, which can provide Samuel L. Jackson levels of badass to even the average Vasudan.

I'm pretty sure I had more to say about this, but it's late, and even if all these Orion-loving junkies saw enlightenment, the forum script won't let them change their votes anyway.  I've also probably said too much by the time I get to the vasudan-anatomy imagry.

 

Offline Desert Tyrant

  • 27
  • Meh.
While I don't nessarily agree with your opinion, I must say that your post was incredibly thought out, and rather informative.  I promise to make my points clear, but it is rather late here, as well. 

 

Offline jr2

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blah blah blah... (very nice, BTW!  :D )

Good points... I just want to throw this in there... you would have an interesting situation if they (any party involved) managed to get real "submarines" built.  What?  There's no water in space.  No, but there is subspace... whoever designed a ship capable scanning & firing weapons through the normal / sub space dimensions would easily have a huge advantage.  Of course, this assumes it's even possible... but think of what we would consider the idea of a submarine, if they had never been invented until now!

 

Offline MT

  • 26
I think we're hitting on a difference in design intent here.

I always like looking at real-world naval vessels when drawing comparisons, so let's have a peek at any given battleship versus any given aircraft carrier.  I'm not sure if you guys have noticed, but even though the battleships have enormous guns and would clearly win in a direct engagement, aircraft carriers have totally obsoleted battleships.  Why?  Coupling reconnaisance (from patroling aircraft from the carrier or other ships in the area) and radar, it isn't necessary for the carrier to enter the battleship's range.  It's tempting to say that replacing big guns with huge missile batteries, but missile systems are compact enough to be placed on smaller warships (i.e. destroyers), so there's really no need for some huge, hulking craft designed for direct engagement.

In FreeSpace, as fighter and bomber technology continues to improve, I foresee decreasing emphasis being placed on direct firepower, in favor of additional fighter and bomber capacity.

Just for giggles, let's consider a wargame scenario, where an Orion and a Hecate enter opposite sides of a star system.  Assuming the ratio of escort fighter to recon craft to bomber are kept the same, the Hecate has 50% more recon fighters to deploy, meaning that they are quite likely to spot the Orion first, but let's suppose that they receive word about each other at exactly the same time.  Immediately, the Orion starts to either launch bombers or fighters, depending on whether they want to start on offense or defense.  On the other side of the system, the Hecate, having greater launch capacity begins launching bombers and escort fighters.  In addition to its superior anti-fighter armaments, the Hecate will have escort fighters in position by the time the Orion's bombers arrive.  The Orion, on the other hand, is going to have warheads sticking out of its hull in very short order.  (You could argue, here, that the Orion could choose to launch fighters before bombers, but they're unlikely to match the Hecate's ability to launch escort fighters, and they're going to have zero capacity to attack the Hecate, and if you can't get on the offensive, you can't win a fight.)

You might posit that the Orion could try jumping to the Hecate's location to turn the tables, but once again, superior fighter and bomber forces are going to win the day, as the Orion is going to be neutered in mere minutes.  What's more, by the time an Orion is capable of jumping to the Hecate's position, the Hecate can jump to a new location, and then we're back to square one.  Even with big, flippin' beams becoming standard equipment on large warships, the universe is becoming a fighter/bomber pilot's paradise.

The issue of corvettes came up, and again, I refer to real-world navies.  Removing fighters from the equation, even with a two-inch gun and some kind of lightwieght surface-to-surface missile system, in a direct engagement, a naval destroyer is going to kick the crap out of an aircraft carrier.  Current weapon systems are just ridiculously powerful, and there's not really an armoring technique that's both viable and effective.  Seriously, if you double a carrier's weight just adding armor plating to it, so that it can take multiple hits from surface-to-surface missiles, all you're likely to do is save your enemy the trouble of sinking your carrier. 

Likewise, there's not a really good defense against beam cannons, if you actually put yourself in a position to be fired upon by one, so as a warship's commander, your goal is to avoid being put in such a position, while directing fighters and bombers toward your target or pursuer.  While I'm no expert on the subject, I'm pretty sure that the number of direct naval engagements has been steadily declining on a per-conflict basis since World War II, where aircraft really started to play a significant role in naval combat.  Naval destroyers exist both to provide support for ground forces and to keep submarines away from carriers and other strategic targets.

In the FreeSpace universe, I see technology moving space combat into a realm even closer present-day naval combat.  I see the TAG missile system being used to allow corvettes to target enemy vessels from ridiculously long range, allowing fighters to take over a bomber's role in a pinch.  I foresee the destroyer class, as defined by the Orion and Typhon being phased out entirely, in favor of a dedicated carrier class, while corvettes move into a defense and long-range support role.  As hinted at in the Deimos' tech room entry, I doubt that cruisers will have a role in the future of FreeSpace, unless they can integrate some type of stealth technology that isn't viable for ships any larger than cruiser-class.  Even at that, though, since first-generation TAG technology can overcome stealth tech, I think cruisers are just dead.

Anyway, all that chat about the Hecate and Orion are nice, but the three BVas beams on the Hatshepsut make a stronger broadside than the Orion has (which mixes BGreens and TerSlash beams), and its fighter compliment is comparable to a Hecate.  All told, I think that if Admiral Khafre and Admiral Petrach had a showdown, it'd start with Khafre stating something along the lines of, "Bite my well-tanned, exoskeletal ass," and it will end with appropriate results to back up the smack talk.  Vasudans have superior equipment, and though it'd take an autopsy to find them, they've probably got positively massive testicles, which can provide Samuel L. Jackson levels of badass to even the average Vasudan.

I'm pretty sure I had more to say about this, but it's late, and even if all these Orion-loving junkies saw enlightenment, the forum script won't let them change their votes anyway.  I've also probably said too much by the time I get to the vasudan-anatomy imagry.

Seems like your entire argument is designed to tear down the Orion. It is obviously unfair since the Orion is a generation (if not more) behind in terms of design. This however does not demolish the argument for a battleship in FS2.

The fighter complement size of the Hatshepsut is not known. Assuming it to be the same as the Hecate is too big of an assumption to make. If that is so, then the Hatshepsut become a super ship, since it can deal a mad beatdown with its beams like a Orion and yet match a Hecate in the number of boys it can launch into space.

Secondly, you are arguing different things in your post. First you talk about ship types then ship classes. Please separate the two of them.

Finally, modern naval combat involves battlegroups, not single ship duels like the way they are in FS universe. Tactics and equipment in real life navies and FS2 do not match. Naval attacks right now consist of bombers (Backfire sized or just a fighter mounting anti-shipping missiles) launching missiles at long ranges (We'll leave aside small motorboats loaded with explosives for now). Fighters on CAP patrol are tasked to intercept those bombers before they launch while the escorts have to contend with shooting those missiles in flight. You can say that there is a lot of button pushing there. In contrast, FS universe has bombers closing in to eyeball distances to ensure the bombs don't get shot down. Plus, those bombs don't have the range (let alone the speed) for long range attacks. The weapons and tactics are totally different.

Another thing, the anti-air defenses of modern carriers are pathetic. They must rely on escorts for protection against air and subsurface threats. I don't think you can draw a parallel b/w a Hecate and a Nimitz.

 

Offline jr2

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Hmm... Phalanx?

 

Offline MT

  • 26
Hmm... Phalanx?

A Nimitz has 3-4 Sea Sparrow launchers (which cannot compare to the Standard missiles carried by the escorts, in terms of missile capability and magazine capacity) and 4 Phalanx CIWS. Those CIWS have an effective range of about 2 km. To date, it has targeted and shot at the chaff released to foil a missile that it was supposed to shoot at, as well as at an aircraft dragging a decoy that it is supposed to shoot at.

The carrier also has 4 12.7mm machine guns. Except for shooting fishing boats, those don't count in naval warfare.

 

Offline jr2

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Darn.  I was hoping they were actually an effective close-range defense.

 

Offline MT

  • 26
Darn.  I was hoping they were actually an effective close-range defense.

It was only fired in anger once, and at that point in time it screwed up. We don't know how effective it would be had there been more engagement.

That said, there are plans to replace them with missiles instead.

 

Offline Mars

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  • 211
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A Nimitz has 3-4 Sea Sparrow launchers (which cannot compare to the Standard missiles carried by the escorts, in terms of missile capability and magazine capacity) and 4 Phalanx CIWS. Those CIWS have an effective range of about 2 km. To date, it has targeted and shot at the chaff released to foil a missile that it was supposed to shoot at, as well as at an aircraft dragging a decoy that it is supposed to shoot at.

The carrier also has 4 12.7mm machine guns. Except for shooting fishing boats, those don't count in naval warfare.
They're currently retrofitting all Nimitz carriers with the rolling airframe missile system as well.