[Snail]

Like the 9 cities of Troy...

[BlueFlames]

Erm....  New civilizations can emerge, yes.  New species, however, need a few billion more years atop the first eight-thousand.  I can grant, however, that when a race has developed to the point of interstellar travel, it would be difficult to hunt and reduce a population to levels that are no longer self-sustaining.  That contains its own counter-argument, though....  If on your first trek to the stars, you met a superior race that essentially wasted civilization as you knew it, the civilization that you built on the ruins of old would probably be highly insular and xenophobic.  Even those species that did survive the ancients and shivans would probably be going to great lengths to keep a low-profile.

[TrashMan]

Exterminating a civilization is nigh impossible, unless you render a whole planet completely uninhabitable.

The ancients CONQUERED, they used planets for their resources (unlike Shivans) so I doubt very much tehy completely exterminated anyone.

The monolouges? That "mea culpa" wailing? Probably overblownin it's scope and using too big a words..

[Flipside]

The thing is, you're dependent on the Jump Node network. For example, imagine that in order to get to a Star that is 20 Light years away using the Subspace Node system, remembering that the Nodes seem to find their exits almost randomly in real-space terms, you could find that you have to travel through hundreds of unpopulated systems to reach it.

Now, assuming the Shivans are a 'reactive' race, the story of Freespace 2 suggests that the Shivan fleet responded to the incursion in the Nebula. Either they had 80 Juggernauts in the area, just in case, or the Fleet mobilised very early in the campaign, possibly as soon as the Shivans were aware of the NTF in the Nebula, I'm not certain of the time frame of FS2, but I get the feeling the gap between the NTF entering the Nebula, and the Juggernauts arriving was around 8-12 months.

I start veering more into theory here, but we have to assume that 80 Juggernauts is not a small investment of resource, even for the Shivans.

So, you have a race that has a massive fleet that responds when they encounter a new enemy, you can even fit the Lucifer 'Scout' theory into that. Even with 20-30 Fleets of the same size in operation, the odds of the Shivans being able to track down every inhabited system that is connected to an enormous jump-node system (particuarly for races that can stabilise weak nodes) is extremely small.

[AlphaOne]

About other civ. keeping a low profile is not such a valid arguement or even something that might be a plausible rule. This is largely due to the example of the GTVA !  I mean they got trashed man during the first great war. An I do mean trashed ! We have to agree that what was left of the terrans and vasudans was a mere shadow of they former potential and in a way power. Just imagine if they somehow managed to learn from the war and form the GTVA but without loosing they homeworlds they source of power.

they would of been 10 time more powerfull during the second great war. Not powerfull enough to stop the shivans perhaps but a lot more powerfull.


However if what races survived out there after the ancients were crushed by the shivans would surely try to find a way to make themselfs powerfull enough so as not to have the same fate. Because a policy of stagnation and isolation will only hurt them in the long run . Nothing good ever came from isolation.

Sure they may try to make it so that they do not attract unwanted atention like let's say start a war amongst themselfs or start a war with another civilization they encounter but they will definetly try to become more powerfull more advanced so that if the shivans decided to attack they could at least have a fighting chance.

However they could also go about this the wrong way and try to kill any other race or enslave them in order to becopme themselfs more powerfull and achieve some sort of security for themselfs. It is a double edged sword and the decisions they make will have consequences.


However if history is of any use most contacts with other species as far as the GTVA goes has resulted in war at one point or another. One of the ways to ensure a war does not start is to become powerfull enough so that other will have to think twice before declaring war. This buis time and in time you can reach diplomatic agreements political breackthroughs can be made etc.


If I have to bet i'd say the GTVA will encounter other civ out there but some sort of fighting will also take place. On what scale that will be detemined on who makes the decisions and what decisions they make. But if its GTVA command then an all out war is asured .

They might as well leave it to man who cleanes toilets to make these kind of decisions since to me it seems he could do a much better job.

also what are the chances the GTVA will encounter some sort of distant relatyve of the ancients or even ancients on some isolated backwater planet?

[haloboy100]

Exterminating a civilization is nigh impossible, unless you render a whole planet completely uninhabitable.

The ancients CONQUERED, they used planets for their resources (unlike Shivans) so I doubt very much tehy completely exterminated anyone.

The monolouges? That "mea culpa" wailing? Probably overblownin it's scope and using too big a words..

you mean

...and we discovered other intelligent life - and we subdued it, or we crushed it.

FYI, "subdued" is fancy for saying "enslaved" furthermore, "crushed" obviously means "destroyed".

[Dark Hunter]

If I have to bet i'd say the GTVA will encounter other civ out there but some sort of fighting will also take place. On what scale that will be detemined on who makes the decisions and what decisions they make. But if its GTVA command then an all out war is asured .

 

I'll say.

[TrashMan]

...and we discovered other intelligent life - and we subdued it, or we crushed it.

FYI, "subdued" is fancy for saying "enslaved" furthermore, "crushed" obviously means "destroyed".
[/quote]

"destroyed" is not the same as "exterminated"..  destroyed their fleets, their capitols, chrushed their resistance....

After all, you would agree with me that Germany was chrushed in WW2? As was Japan? Both countries are still here however (and their people moreso)

[Stormkeeper]

I believe that there are other races out there, possibly with subspace capabilities. I doubt that the Shivans will anhillate a civillsation at the first hint of subspace travel. I think, they'd move to eradicate only if they started expanding rapidly, and moving closer to still-growing civilisations. This assumes their role as the 'Great Protector' to be true, though.

[Flipside]

'Subdued' from the monologue could also mean 'subjugated', similar to the Roman Empire, who would allow a state to continue to govern itself at a social level, but was not allowed to create an army outside of Roman control, and had to pay a tithe each year.

Crushed could mean destroyed, or could simply mean 'broke their will and enslaved'. Any race that can move around via subspace is going to be extremely hard to extinguish. The only way to be certain would be to destroy the star of every habitable planet you come across.....

[AlphaOne]

DEstroy a star would be hard to do even for the shivans! I mean destroy every star that is!

Besides such destruction on they part would be somewhat counterproductive since you would loose subspace nodes lots of them ! Also the shivans while bent on destruction to look more like they are trynng to teach a lesson to any warmongering species out there each time they send they fleets intead of them beeing bent on taking out every race with subspace tech.


One other thing that has come to mi mind is that somehow maibe the shivans are actualy tring to push civ. out there to become better more advanced to learn from its mistakes to leaern and coexist with they neighbours form aliances in order to become stronger. Look at the GTVA for example .


If the shivans would not have intervened there would be no GTVA! Also no beam cannons at least not so soon.

This is also one of the reasons why i believe that blowing up capella was one of they methods to seal off the GTVA for a while ! Perhaps some other race exist out there powerfull enough to go head to head with the shivans. Who knows what techs the GTVA will develop in order to counter the shivans which could come in handy against other foes.


What is for sure is that each time the shivans step in and do not destroy a civ. like they did with the ancients that specific civ. manages to become stronger and more advanced in a very short time period much shorter then normal.

Also does anyone else believe that the GTVA will somehow manage to outgrow itself  I mean absorb into its body other races form new aliances ? I say it would be very probable that such a thing would happen since well to me it seemed like the GTVA will try form new aliances rather then start a war to enslave other races. Hell it would be a lot more cheap and a much better solution and this way they will probably not attract the shivans.

[Gamma_Draconis]

Except there probably won't be any other races. The Shivans had probably already gotten to them. Maybe the reason why the Shivans sealed off the Capella Star is because there was another faction similar to the GTVA from the other Knosso portals. So the Shivans decided to destroy the jump nodes leading to the other factions. Gah, FS2 has left us with so many unanswered questions.

[Nuclear1]

About other civ. keeping a low profile is not such a valid arguement or even something that might be a plausible rule. This is largely due to the example of the GTVA !  I mean they got trashed man during the first great war. An I do mean trashed ! We have to agree that what was left of the terrans and vasudans was a mere shadow of they former potential and in a way power. Just imagine if they somehow managed to learn from the war and form the GTVA but without loosing they homeworlds they source of power.

We're talking about species staying on their home planets, or being extremely limited in space travel (colonizing that planet's moons).  The GTVA, while still battered badly after the Great War, held onto its systems and even expanded to include more of the outer systems (Capella, Adhara, systems beyond Ross 128).  The GTVA weren't keeping a low profile, despite forming the alliance between Terrans and Vasudans.

Of course, the Shivans have been known to go after races even after they've attempted to keep a low profile.  When the Ancients gave up their empire and went home, the Shivans still followed and exterminated them. 

One other thing that has come to mi mind is that somehow maibe the shivans are actualy tring to push civ. out there to become better more advanced to learn from its mistakes to leaern and coexist with they neighbours form aliances in order to become stronger. Look at the GTVA for example .

The GTVA was a result of the Great War.  The Shivans are much more like galactic punitive measure than a galactic super nanny with beam cannons that tells its children to behave and play nicely together.  The Shivans wiped out the Ancients homeworld, destroyed Vasuda Prime and killed billions in the process, and aimed at destroying Earth before the two races stopped them.  The Shivans seem to operate by a "live by the sword, die by the sword" policy; kill, and you'll be killed. 

Curiously, on the same note, the Shivans don't seem to aim at actually totally wiping out species.  The Ancients said that after the destruction of their homeworld, "they are few of us left."  The Shivans seemed to limit their attacks almost exclusively to homeworlds, where they could do severe damage to morale and a civilization's spirits.

[karajorma]

Curiously, on the same note, the Shivans don't seem to aim at actually totally wiping out species.  The Ancients said that after the destruction of their homeworld, "they are few of us left."  The Shivans seemed to limit their attacks almost exclusively to homeworlds, where they could do severe damage to morale and a civilization's spirits.

Hmmmmm. Depends on how you read it actually.

There are few of us left. We know we will soon be gone. And so we can see our fate as others will see it.

There will be little legacy. No great expressions of what we once were. Our technology, our achievements, if ever they are seen again, will spawn none of the awe that filled our conquests.

We know our fate. We are being eliminated. When we travelled subspace, the Cosmic Destroyers took note. When we conquered and colonized in galaxies where we had no place, the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom.

And so the destroyers came for us.

Doesn't sound like they thought the Shivans were going to let them be after taking out their homeworld to me.

[AlphaOne]

On the same note they could just refer to the fact that they were so badly damaged by the shivans that the few of them that were left woul never be able to form ani sort of meaningfull cohesive structure ! The survivors could of been spread so thin across the whole ancient empire that it would be imposible for them to really be called a civilization again but rather survivors of an ancient species or remnants. Rememeber from the ancients mobologues there is a phrase in one of them which to me suggest that theyr empire was as big as this galaxi and posibly even bigger. Now if you have a few sistems spread across the galaxy and with the ancients beeing so badly damaged it would likeli take them centuries to recover and heal they would so that would start again to develop then you could say they no longer exist as a civ. ! That is if they were not absorbed by the local inhabitants .

Also during the second great war while the shivans were as deadly as ever they did not seem to have the same determination in engaging the GTVA as they did during the first great war. But rather resisted the GTVA avances and attacks and in the end decided to seal themselfs off from the GTVA space.


The shivans must of realised that if they decided to retreat from the advance of the GTVA then the GTVA in a relatively short amount of time would beome too powerfull for even the shivans . Or beeing left alone to wonder the galaxi and explore they would eventualy come across something equaly powerfull to the shivans but this time bent on conquest and so the GTVA will most surely find its end .

[Snail]

Also during the second great war while the shivans were as deadly as ever they did not seem to have the same determination in engaging the GTVA as they did during the first great war. But rather resisted the GTVA avances and attacks and in the end decided to seal themselfs off from the GTVA space.

How did they seal themselves from GTVA space? They nuked the frikken star, not the nodes. The Neried and Bastion took care of the nodes.

The shivans must of realised that if they decided to retreat from the advance of the GTVA then the GTVA in a relatively short amount of time would beome too powerfull for even the shivans .

How so? The Shivans have 80 JUGGERNAUTS. The GTVA created 1 juggernaut in 20 years. If the Shivans were really so scared the GTVA would become so powerful later on, they should have just killed them while they're down. Send in their 80 juggernauts and have the fleet split up into different smaller fleets, annihilating all GTVA systems. Sure, they'd loose one or two jugs, but if they're so scared the GTVA would become more powerful than themselves, surely annihilating them while they're still weak is the way to go? Not running away and waiting for the GTVA to build up their strength?

Or beeing left alone to wonder the galaxi and explore they would eventualy come across something equaly powerfull to the shivans but this time bent on conquest and so the GTVA will most surely find its end .

If the Shivans are the 'Great Preservers' of the universe, wouldn't they come to the aid of the GTVA and nuke this other race that is equally powerful of the Shivans? Bang? Boom? Bang? Explosion? Explosion?

[TrashMan]

WEll, there's no way Shivna can know the full size and power of the GTVA... they might think the GTVA has more collies lying around. Let's not forget that hte Collie was also the first jug - and prototpyes take twice as long to build than the next ships of the class.

[Dark Hunter]

Personally, I think the Ancients are well and truly dead, every last one of 'em.

Some people have stated that they might have run away, only a tiny fraction of their old population... but if that was the case, wouldn't they have risen to power again in the intervening 8,000 years? I find it hard to believe that such an advanced race would be kept down to refugee status for that long.

[Snail]

Personally, I think the Ancients are well and truly dead, every last one of 'em.

Some people have stated that they might have run away, only a tiny fraction of their old population... but if that was the case, wouldn't they have risen to power again in the intervening 8,000 years? I find it hard to believe that such an advanced race would be kept down to refugee status for that long.

I agree with DH.

WEll, there's no way Shivna can know the full size and power of the GTVA... they might think the GTVA has more collies lying around. Let's not forget that hte Collie was also the first jug - and prototpyes take twice as long to build than the next ships of the class.

Yes, but you still can't make 80 of them to fight the superior Saths anyway, can you?

[AlphaOne]

Actualy let us not forget that whyle it was not designed to take on a ship of equal power or size to its own or greather the Collie did very well. I mean sure it took damage from blown reactors but it managed to take out the sath before the sath got into weapons range ! Sure by that time the sath did not have any forward beams of its own but it doesnt really matter.

Also let us not forget that the shivans while having some 80 jugs out there had little in the way of destroyers or other smaller cap ships. Only a hand full or so !

On the same note the shivans are not stupid they probably realised that the GTVA will atempt to take on the sath's bread side where they are relatively imune to beam fire.

On a second note if the shivans have some other race out thre equaly as powerfull as them tryng to take them out would be very very dangerous ondeed.


Also since when do jump nodes reamain intact after the star is blown away?? Don't you need a trat or something like that to have jump nodes? That is what i believed.

And refering to the GTVA becoming as powerfull as t5he shivans were not talking a few years here we are talking decades perhaps even a century. Remember the shivans dont do thing with short term in mind. I mean it must of taken them centuries to crush the ancients empire.