[BlueFlames]

what can be a bigger threat then the shivans?

The biggest threat is the one you don't have the resources to stop.

Remember, also, that GTVA space is surrounded by a vast, unknown expanse.  Who's to say there aren't more shivans prowling around, looking for another hole in the defenses?  In the Great War, the shivans entered terran and vasudan space via less-stable jump nodes in multiple systems, so it seems reasonable to assume that if they spot the opportunity, they would open a second front against the GTVA.  (Hence, the shameless linkage in my previous post.)

[S-99]

Why would you think that? Documented history is documented history - aka proof -  not myths!
Or do you think a 1000 years from now people won't belive the recordings of WW2 or 9/11 and consider them myths?

Well, your comparison of humanity remembering WW2 is incorrect and different than what i was talking about first off. When time passes by on the order of thousands of years, stuff can turn to legend and myth, not always, but a good bet that something can. Usually it happens in simpler times, such as before the medieval era. One great example is adam and eve. Adam and eve is a documented historical thing in the bible for how we came to be, but it's always questioned if it's true, and there's no way to prove it either. What about the flood with noah? Or better yet, the problems god and moses gave to the egyptians. Is it a myth that that frogs and locusts swarmed egypt and then fire from the sky came?

If something from several thousand years ago was recorded on stone or something with no other proof to offer that it happened besides some writing and surviving folklore, then you'll probably have something on the order of legend/myth. What about the epic of gilgamesh? That also documented a flood and a huge boat just like the story of noah. But, is say the epic of gilgamesh and the story of noah documented history (i mean two stories from two different cultures are backing up the flood...the flood could have happened, but what about that crazy ass big boat that held all of the animals and the last humans of the time)? People today would just consider them great stories. But, back then writing was the only way to document history really in ancient times. In the meantime time if there is other proof out there that some stuff actually happened, over thousands of years cities get buried, civilizations get conquered and changed, stuff gets lost, and even the geography changes. So it's really hard to find proof sometimes if it's impossible to find it to back up the story of noah, epic of gilgamesh, and the story of moses. I mean, they're really crazy stories when you hear them, and to actually try to imagine them as being real in todays modern day thousands of years later as compared to the day thousands of years ago when this **** did happen as told by these stories.

Are they stories or were they real? Are we largely misinterpreting them for the way people understood the world back then, or are we interpreting them fine? You can only get so far with research and unburying stuff, and science makes mistakes all the time as well. So stuff will remain skeptical for many people until a similar happening of a world flood happens again to compare with, or until time travel comes about. And their you might have legend/myth.

At least with science and research proving that the flood did happen isn't so impossible, along with finding the arc (i believe that was found already). But, i mean generally, crazy **** that happens, that may be on the order of unbelievable later, but if it can be figured out, it will astound people and give new respect for older stuff out there.

The ancients on the other hand if they survived the shivan onslaught 8000 years ago in the fs universe could very easily be in the same boat. And what about those vasudan prophecies in fs1 about the shivans after the shivans came? Speaking of which prophecies are gay as hell, they're always too obscure to be prepared for them or do anything about. And if you get a prophecy that has all of the information for when, where, and what happens, then that's something different called a prediction. Man i just hate prophecies in general, they're quite retarded in nature and perhaps even more for people to get wrapped up in them too

[AlphaOne]

Well as far as I can tell both the vasudan and the terrans have some 12 fleets each. Asuming they have a minimum of 1 destroyer per fleet (mi take is that they have somewhere between 2-4 per fleet but lets asume just 1 for now) that would still be some 24 destroyers minimum in the GTVA with at least 3 times the corvettes and 6 times the cruisers. That would be 24 D, 72 Cv, and 144 Cr. Now wich ever way you look at it this is quite an impresive amount of ships. Still nowere near as much as the shivans but still quite a few. If they pulled half of them to blocade the Knossos there would  have to be some sort of unbelivable miracle for the shivans to breack throush such a blocade.

However when you think these fleets were spread all over the GTVA then these figures start to be quite small.

[Dark Hunter]

IIRC, the Collossus had a couple destroyers assigned to its fleet as well...

[AlphaOne]

Well that makes the Collie fleet the most powerfull of all the fleets in the GTVA and that would explain the huge amount of resources needed for it and its fleet. Since that would be a couple od destroyers even more corvettes and even more cruisers. Hell the collie fleet should of had its own dedicated inteligence SOC and resuply fleet. That would of made it resemble the panzer divisions in WW2. They were like miniature armies. That is why they were so eficient and feared.

[BlueFlames]

Big blockade?  Check.  Multiple shivan juggernauts?  Check.  Grinding FS2 to a halt?  Close enough.

Command, cue dramatic music, and try not to lose.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Vasudan Commander]

I dont know why they didnt use meson bombs on the Capella fleet. They certainly had enough to stuff up 2 Orions to the brim, so the must've had some to spare.

[Gamma_Draconis]

I dont know why they didnt use meson bombs on the Capella fleet. They certainly had enough to stuff up 2 Orions to the brim, so the must've had some to spare.

They really had no method of delivering it. The best they could do is probably jam one inside an Ursa bomber and have the pilot do a kamakaze run on a Shivan ship. Even then, the Ursa can get shot down. They had no efficient means of delivering it.

[Scooby_Doo]

what can be a bigger threat then the shivans?

Oh... I don't know.... maybe something like say..... the Culture 
Course they wouldn't even consider shivans a threat. 

LOL I could see Capella "guarded" by one ship. 
vessel: 'Command, 80 5km long shivan vessels jumped into Capella, they weren't friendly so we destroyed them. Don't worry it only took a minute, they were sooooo slow.'   
command: 'OOOOOO....KKKKKK.....'

[BlueFlames]

I dont know why they didnt use meson bombs on the Capella fleet. They certainly had enough to stuff up 2 Orions to the brim, so the must've had some to spare.

Delivery and contingency are probably the two reasons that Meson warheads weren't deployed directly against the juggernaut fleet.

Given the size of the meson bombs, it really does take a freighter or warship to haul the things around.  I doubt that a fleet of eighty freighters (with necessary escort) could be considered expendable in the situation the GTVA found itself in, and cruisers, corvettes, and destroyers would certainly be an even more precious commodity.

I'd also guess that the GTVA had already ear-marked the greater majority of their meson bombs for sealing jump nodes, before the Psamtik got vaporized in the nebula.  The first Sathanas was quite a surprise, and I'm betting that Command had a moment of prescience, realizing that the shivans could have even greater surprises in store.  In the event of the shivans mustering something unstoppable by conventional means, Command would have wanted to seal it in the nebula or Gamma Draconis.  (Prepping the Nereid and Bastion was necessary, in the event that one should be prematurely destroyed.)  Because Gamma Draconis fell to the Sathanas fleet so quickly, there was no choice but to sacrifice Capella.  Tangent aside, the point is, the bombs were physically there, but they were largely available for blasting juggernauts because the Alliance couldn't risk losing the ability to seal the Capella jump nodes.

Anyway, there really wasn't much of an alternative to the way the Invasion of 2367 ended.  While one Sathanas has its weak points, eighty-plus Sathanases is essentially an unstoppable force, and the GTVA didn't have any immovable objects, with the sole exception of sealing jump nodes.  While plenty of GTVA Command's decisions can be questioned, they can tell when things go pear-shaped.  Sometimes, you've got to cut your losses, and closing up Capella was better than the possibility of having the rest of terran and vasudan space overrun by the juggernaut fleet.  Bear in mind, that there was no way for anybody to know that the shivans were going to destroy Capella along with half of their own fleet.  The assumption was likely that the juggernauts would quit dicking around about the star, and get on with annihilating humanity.

[foolfromhell]

There are at least one or two, or three (point five I guess) out there so far. Of those only the Lizard/Bektah ships are available for download though.

Wtf? in the Tosev timeline, Lizards had technology that wasnt more advanced than maybe the year 2000, except for their star ships. Its unlikely that they got new technology so quickly. They take thousands of years to invent what we can invent in a few decades. They have no evidence of fighters or bombers or capital ships in space. All their capital ships in the books were basically carriers loaded with Lancruisers (tanks), troops, and Killercrafts (Jet-Fighters). All those are atmospheric vehicles. In space, they only had the carriers which were armed with simple nukes that were designed to be launched when the craft was landed and projectile guns and they had shuttles. This is due the the fact that the Lizards were so arrogant that they were the pinnacle of technological advancement in the entire universe, that nobody else in the universe will be space-faring. Thats why they were afraid of the humans who developed ships with a full armament of nuclear weapons, railguns, and FTL drives which could strike anywhere. The Lizards took 20+ years to travel from Home to Earth. Humans could do it in 2 months, max. That mod is not true to canon. The Lizards would get slaughtered. Especially since at the end of the last book (There are more, atleast I hope so), the Lizard home planet called "Home" sent a signal to their 2 colony worlds, but since the 2 colony worlds are 10-15 light years away, the signal wont reach them and they know nothing about the human's FTL drives.

As Bean Delphiki said, its impossible to defend a 3-dimensional target the scale of a planet, and the only solution is to attack the enemy's planet and hope he doesnt have a fleet on its way to your's. Humans clearly have the advantage here, and this is basically no-contest.

[Black Wolf]

There are at least one or two, or three (point five I guess) out there so far. Of those only the Lizard/Bektah ships are available for download though.

Wtf? in the Tosev timeline, Lizards had technology that wasnt more advanced than maybe the year 2000, except for their star ships. Its unlikely that they got new technology so quickly. They take thousands of years to invent what we can invent in a few decades. They have no evidence of fighters or bombers or capital ships in space. All their capital ships in the books were basically carriers loaded with Lancruisers (tanks), troops, and Killercrafts (Jet-Fighters). All those are atmospheric vehicles. In space, they only had the carriers which were armed with simple nukes that were designed to be launched when the craft was landed and projectile guns and they had shuttles. This is due the the fact that the Lizards were so arrogant that they were the pinnacle of technological advancement in the entire universe, that nobody else in the universe will be space-faring. Thats why they were afraid of the humans who developed ships with a full armament of nuclear weapons, railguns, and FTL drives which could strike anywhere. The Lizards took 20+ years to travel from Home to Earth. Humans could do it in 2 months, max. That mod is not true to canon. The Lizards would get slaughtered. Especially since at the end of the last book (There are more, atleast I hope so), the Lizard home planet called "Home" sent a signal to their 2 colony worlds, but since the 2 colony worlds are 10-15 light years away, the signal wont reach them and they know nothing about the human's FTL drives.

As Bean Delphiki said, its impossible to defend a 3-dimensional target the scale of a planet, and the only solution is to attack the enemy's planet and hope he doesnt have a fleet on its way to your's. Humans clearly have the advantage here, and this is basically no-contest.

You'd have to ask Taristin to be sure, but I think that these lizards are just supposed to based loosely on those ones, not precisely the same.

Why would you think that? Documented history is documented history - aka proof -  not myths!
Or do you think a 1000 years from now people won't belive the recordings of WW2 or 9/11 and consider them myths?

Well, your comparison of humanity remembering WW2 is incorrect and different than what i was talking about first off. When time passes by on the order of thousands of years, stuff can turn to legend and myth, not always, but a good bet that something can. Usually it happens in simpler times, such as before the medieval era. One great example is adam and eve. Adam and eve is a documented historical thing in the bible for how we came to be, but it's always questioned if it's true, and there's no way to prove it either. What about the flood with noah? Or better yet, the problems god and moses gave to the egyptians. Is it a myth that that frogs and locusts swarmed egypt and then fire from the sky came?

If something from several thousand years ago was recorded on stone or something with no other proof to offer that it happened besides some writing and surviving folklore, then you'll probably have something on the order of legend/myth. What about the epic of gilgamesh? That also documented a flood and a huge boat just like the story of noah. But, is say the epic of gilgamesh and the story of noah documented history (i mean two stories from two different cultures are backing up the flood...the flood could have happened, but what about that crazy ass big boat that held all of the animals and the last humans of the time)? People today would just consider them great stories. But, back then writing was the only way to document history really in ancient times. In the meantime time if there is other proof out there that some stuff actually happened, over thousands of years cities get buried, civilizations get conquered and changed, stuff gets lost, and even the geography changes. So it's really hard to find proof sometimes if it's impossible to find it to back up the story of noah, epic of gilgamesh, and the story of moses. I mean, they're really crazy stories when you hear them, and to actually try to imagine them as being real in todays modern day thousands of years later as compared to the day thousands of years ago when this **** did happen as told by these stories.

Are they stories or were they real? Are we largely misinterpreting them for the way people understood the world back then, or are we interpreting them fine? You can only get so far with research and unburying stuff, and science makes mistakes all the time as well. So stuff will remain skeptical for many people until a similar happening of a world flood happens again to compare with, or until time travel comes about. And their you might have legend/myth.

At least with science and research proving that the flood did happen isn't so impossible, along with finding the arc (i believe that was found already). But, i mean generally, crazy **** that happens, that may be on the order of unbelievable later, but if it can be figured out, it will astound people and give new respect for older stuff out there.

The ancients on the other hand if they survived the shivan onslaught 8000 years ago in the fs universe could very easily be in the same boat. And what about those vasudan prophecies in fs1 about the shivans after the shivans came? Speaking of which prophecies are gay as hell, they're always too obscure to be prepared for them or do anything about. And if you get a prophecy that has all of the information for when, where, and what happens, then that's something different called a prediction. Man i just hate prophecies in general, they're quite retarded in nature and perhaps even more for people to get wrapped up in them too

I had to read this twice to ensure you were actually saying what I think you're saying. All I'll say is that while you're relatively safe peddling all your pseudo science on page seven of some random thread in General FS, make sure you read a few proper science books or papres before you try to convince people in Hard Light that proving the flood is relatively easy, or that Adam and Eve is "documented historical fact". Both the biologist and the geologist in me want to slap some sense into you after that post.

[TrashMan]

what can be a bigger threat then the shivans?

Oh... I don't know.... maybe something like say..... the Culture 
Course they wouldn't even consider shivans a threat. 

LOL I could see Capella "guarded" by one ship. 
vessel: 'Command, 80 5km long shivan vessels jumped into Capella, they weren't friendly so we destroyed them. Don't worry it only took a minute, they were sooooo slow.'   
command: 'OOOOOO....KKKKKK.....'

I so don't ge that reference.....

[TrashMan]

B.T.W. - any ancient that escaped would do so in a space-faring veichle...transport, freighter or warship. They have the technology to RECORD data - ship sensors, holograms, cameras and stuff like that.

So it's not like finding a ancient manuscript that tells of the flood, it's like finding a DVD with the flooding actually recorded on it.

[haloboy100]

the power supply of that ship would obviously burn out by the time anybody got to it
Not to mention the ancient computer data on that ship wouldn't be compatible with anything the GTVA possesses...

[Flipside]

We're talking about the remnants of the Ancients. I suspect the technology would have largely be cannibalised if it exists, though it's not certain, but when you are a race simply trying to continue to exist, it's more important to have ploughs and houses than guns and sensors. Consider the amount of civilisations that humanity has had, and we're still learning about our own species past even though many of those civilisations were quite advanced, but what they learned got lost over the years through various wars, invasions and disasters, there's a good chance that any surviving Ancients would know they came from a bigger picture thousands of years earlier, but just how accurate that picture is it's kind of hard to say, you may well get an attitude like the Hammer of Light, who understood little more than that the 'Destroyers' existed. That's often been cited as evidence that the Vasudan culture was in some way connected to the Ancients' Empire. If the Vasudans cannot even keep hold of all the details, there's very little chance the Ancients could.

[haloboy100]

point.

[Woolie Wool]

We're talking about the remnants of the Ancients. I suspect the technology would have largely be cannibalised if it exists, though it's not certain, but when you are a race simply trying to continue to exist, it's more important to have ploughs and houses than guns and sensors. Consider the amount of civilisations that humanity has had, and we're still learning about our own species past even though many of those civilisations were quite advanced, but what they learned got lost over the years through various wars, invasions and disasters, there's a good chance that any surviving Ancients would know they came from a bigger picture thousands of years earlier, but just how accurate that picture is it's kind of hard to say, you may well get an attitude like the Hammer of Light, who understood little more than that the 'Destroyers' existed. That's often been cited as evidence that the Vasudan culture was in some way connected to the Ancients' Empire. If the Vasudans cannot even keep hold of all the details, there's very little chance the Ancients could.

Is there anything preventing the Vasudans from being a splinter group of the Ancients?

[Flipside]

I seem to recall that stated that the Vasudans were not the remains of the Ancients, I know the subject is always avoided on here. My own personal opinion is that the Vasudans were one of the races that the Ancients interacted with or enslaved, either way, I'm almost certain there is some kind of link between the two races.

[TrashMan]

We're talking about the remnants of the Ancients. I suspect the technology would have largely be cannibalised if it exists, though it's not certain, but when you are a race simply trying to continue to exist, it's more important to have ploughs and houses than guns and sensors. Consider the amount of civilisations that humanity has had, and we're still learning about our own species past even though many of those civilisations were quite advanced, but what they learned got lost over the years through various wars, invasions and disasters, there's a good chance that any surviving Ancients would know they came from a bigger picture thousands of years earlier, but just how accurate that picture is it's kind of hard to say, you may well get an attitude like the Hammer of Light, who understood little more than that the 'Destroyers' existed. That's often been cited as evidence that the Vasudan culture was in some way connected to the Ancients' Empire. If the Vasudans cannot even keep hold of all the details, there's very little chance the Ancients could.

Some knowledge has been lost during some darker periods of the pase...like the fall of the roman empire - alltouhg I wouldn't call them quite advanced.
There is a point in development - once mass world communications are reached - after which the loss of knowledge is negligable. There had to be millions of recodrings of events past and current ones made by the ancients. At least some ships would be canibalized in an effort to rebuild the lives of the people, but you won't erase recordings - what good would it do?