Author Topic: The Pledge of Allegiance  (Read 11330 times)

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Offline Galemp

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The Pledge of Allegiance
Okay, it's 6 in the morning and I'm outraged. Nobody's around but I need someone to talk to. I'm looking for a variety of points of view, political, theological and international, but fair warning, this is a United States-centered topic.



While efforts have been underway to excise the phrase "Under God" from the national Pledge of Allegiance, it looks like things are hopeless. The Texas state legislature has recently passed into law a bill actually adding these words into the state Pledge.

http://chron.com//disp/story.mpl/front/5020241.html

Regardless of your own theistic or atheistic leanings, there is absolutely no reason to edit this phrase into a mandatory pledge except as a means of asserting or ascribing superiority of a political entity (the state) to a specific religious one (God.)

The original phrase "under God" was added to the Pledge in 1954, at the height of the Cold War and at a time when American life was dominated by conflict with the Soviet Union. Like Rep. Riddle, President Eisenhower saw 'a gap' in the pledge. After hearing a sermon, Eisenhower initiated a bill to change the pledge:

Quote
"Last Sunday, the President of the United States and his family occupied the pew where Abraham Lincoln worshipped. The pastor, the Reverend George M. Docherty, suggested the change in our Pledge of Allegiance that I have offered [as a bill]. Dr. Docherty delivered a wise sermon. He said that as a native of Scotland come to these shores he could appreciate the pledge as something more than a hollow verse taught to children for memory. I would like to quote from his words. He said, 'there was something missing in the pledge, and that which was missing was the characteristic and definitive factor in the American way of life.' Mr. Speaker, I think Mr. Docherty hit the nail square on the head."

Unfortunately the politicians of the era had misinterpreted history. "The characteristic and definitive factor in the American way of life" was not belief in God, but rather the freedom to believe in God. What set America apart from the Soviets was not that we had religion and they did not, but that we had a freedom to choose our religion and they did not. And freedom of choice, of course, means freedom to worship Elohim, Yahweh, Allah, Brahman, the Goddess, Apollo or the Flying Spaghetti Monster--or none at all. Ascribing America's position as a superpower to the Abrahamic God is not only historically incorrect but insensitive and unconstitutional. For political reasons, however, the phrase was included in the daily pledge recited by millions of schoolchildren every day.

Not only has this phrase not been excised, but religious groups--including former President Bush--have used it to persecute atheists, polytheists, pluralists and other assorted non-Christians by claiming that "This is one nation, Under God" and so members of the aforementioned groups are unpatriotic or not considered citizens. This is clearly in conflict with the concept of religious freedom established in the Constitution, which every politician is sworn to uphold.

Recent challenges to making the Pledge recitation mandatory have met with success, though efforts to remove the phrase entirely have made little progress... and given the direction this country's governing bodies are moving in, will likely remain in place for some time. Students are no longer required to pledge, nor do they need a note from home. However those who object to the Pledge itself, or its content, are made conspicuous as dissenters which probably has a chilling effect upon their decision.

Rep. Riddle, and the rest of the Texas legislature, seem totally oblivious to all this history. The new law not only requires the mandatory pledge of both National and State pledges, but puts additional emphasis on the phrase "Under God" and requires notes for those who wish to opt out. All three are unconstitutional, all three are infringing upon students' rights, and all three serve more to bring us closer to our enemies' states of mind than they do to distance us from their ideology.



Does anyone else regard the flippant consideration given this bill and the ease at which it passed into law as deeply disturbing as I do?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 06:59:08 am by GalacticEmperor »
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Offline Kosh

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance
The whole countraversy shouldn't even be a contraversy. So many people get caught up in this "well, we're under god" and I have yet to hear a single good arguement why it should be there. It wasn't in there to begin with, and never should have been there. Just remove it and get it over with.
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Offline Wobble73

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance
When you currency states "In God we trust" you are going to have problems!
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Offline Nuke

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance
it sould be illegal for politicians to mention the word god while on the job.
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance
But it's just so damn easy to play to the religious crowd and get their votes! Asking politicians to actively opt for a stance in opposition to the view of the religious right would essentially be asking them to throw away tens of thousands of votes for no real reason.

Anyway, it's not that big a deal. It's Texas for crying out loud!

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance
christianity was created for the sole purpose of keeping theese kind of people in power. it seems to have worked.
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Offline Galemp

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance
...asking them to throw away tens of thousands of votes for no real reason.

And I suppose honoring First Amendment rights for all citizens isn't a real reason? Refer to the Bush quote I linked if you need any evidence that this seemingly innocent phrase could have dire consequences.

christianity was created for the sole purpose of keeping these kind of people in power. it seems to have worked.

To be fair, Christianity is an extremely broad category. Don't confuse followers of Christ with followers of the Church.
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Offline Shade

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance
I came here expecting to find a heated discussion and find that I agree with everything that has already been said. God and politics do not mix, and I find it strange how the US government is so determined to twist the ideals of the country into something they have never been, catering to religious fundamentalists and other extremists as well as fear-mongering to trounce the constitution. All this instead of trying to ensure the freedom and well-being (in that order) of their citizens, which is what they should be doing.

Actually, scratch that, I don't find it strange, I just see it as proof that they don't really give a damn about the country or it's citizens, but only about themselves and about staying in power by all means necessary.
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance
And I suppose honoring First Amendment rights for all citizens isn't a real reason? Refer to the Bush quote I linked if you need any evidence that this seemingly innocent phrase could have dire consequences.
You think a majority of modern politicians care? I'll grant you that there are undoubtedly men and women out there who are acting wholly for the benefit of their nation and humanity in general, but i'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that they'd make up about 3% of the overall leadership population.

You're clearly passionate in upholding the tenets upon which the US was formed, but these people just don't care. They're in it for the money, the power, and above all themselves.

 

Offline Galemp

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance
You're clearly passionate in upholding the tenets upon which the US was formed, but these people just don't care. They're in it for the money, the power, and above all themselves.

This is how it is, but this is not how it should be.
There are groups who are willing to take the government to task on these issues, and the more obvious and egregious the offenses the more likely they are to be challenged and resolved. That's why I'm raising these issues, to raise consciousness and support for the necessary reforms.
My despair is at the current political climate across the nation that's actively going backwards from what should be happening.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance
...asking them to throw away tens of thousands of votes for no real reason.

And I suppose honoring First Amendment rights for all citizens isn't a real reason? Refer to the Bush quote I linked if you need any evidence that this seemingly innocent phrase could have dire consequences.

christianity was created for the sole purpose of keeping these kind of people in power. it seems to have worked.

To be fair, Christianity is an extremely broad category. Don't confuse followers of Christ with followers of the Church.

how can anyone follow christ when noone knows who that is. i am in the opinion that the so called holy roman empire-sponsered religion (and that includes the bible as cannonized), was designed to keep the romans in power dispite the collapsing empire. emperors simply became the popes and power was spent converting the masses, rather than conquering them. this obviously worked because the church remained the power base in europe though out the dark ages.

anyway to my point i doubt that todays followers of christ have any thing in common with those of 1800 years ago. they follow the character created by the church and take the new testament as absolute fact. all the crhristians of today have is a splintered idea of what christ was, as told by some shady scribes under some questionable management.

it was constantine who made the religion an imperial one, forever entwining religion and politics. constantine supposedly witnessed a miracle that made him convert, i think it more likely that he simply saw an oppritunity to perserve the empire and jumped on it, that or he was hallucinating. then again, roman emperors were never known for their sanity.

I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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Offline Mefustae

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance
He's got a point. Religion is just another form of control, a way of keeping the masses under one's thumb without having to resort to overly-wasteful methods such as arbitrary imprisonment or executions. Fear is a powerful tool in population control, but not nearly as powerful as piety.

Quite frankly, i'm of the opinion that we're getting to the point where we no longer need a supernatural judiciary system. But then, you get these nutters who bring a "go team!" mentality to belief, acting as a detriment to free society and a burden us rational-minded folk.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 08:36:17 am by Mefustae »

 

Offline Galemp

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance
I can see this thread getting derailed, so let me remind everyone that this is supposed to be a pro-civil rights discussion, not an anti-religion discussion.

That's why this has never been changed, you realize. Support for the rights of atheists, pluralists, and non-Christians has always been drowned out by unpopular public opinion about those groups. So let's stay on topic; I'd like to bring this up with a Congressman in such a way that he doesn't immediately balk at the idea of offending 75% of the population.
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance
Good point, sorry about that! :)

 

Offline BloodEagle

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance
Perhaps it would be better to let the person fill in said blank?

I.E. One nation, under ______.

Just my 2¢

 

Offline KappaWing

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance
Perhaps it would be better to let the person fill in said blank?

I.E. One nation, under His Noodly Appendage.

Just my 2¢

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Offline Scuddie

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance
It depends on the interpretation of Under God.  While being a person with Christian-like ideas, I see Under God as a reference to power.  The Church of England was said to have the monarchy in its pocket.  They often insisted England was God's country, and had the authority of God for their conquests.  Under God (In my eyes) means just that we should recognize that while we may be a great power, we are not the Ultimate authority, and must remain modest in our actions.  To me, this is a very valid part of our pledge.

However, conservatives and christofascists have distorted the phrase to make it mean the exact opposite of what it (should) mean.  They emphasize the word God and use Under to further reinforce it, rather than emphasizing the word Under and using the word God to reinforce it.  It wont be long before we are "God's country", if we haven't been already...
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Offline akenbosch

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance
Perhaps it would be better to let the person fill in said blank?

I.E. One nation, under karajorma.

I.E. One nation, under voliton.

I.E. One nation, under derek smart.

I.E. One nation, under the tooth fairy.

I.E. One nation, under my cat, who is a greater authority than the collective government as far as im concerned, as he doesent give a spit over stem cells, cloning, or creating evil human-cow hybrids. word.

Just my 2¢

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Offline Snail

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance
This is a serious thread, takashi. With serious matters at hand. Don't spam. Wonder why I hadn't posted yet?

 

Offline Scuddie

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance
You expect any different, Snail?
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