[Ghostavo]

An error doesn't occur in the genetic code at THAT rate! Even if you consider a 1% rate, it's still a huge rate! It can't be errors every single time.

You sure? Do me a favor and pull up some numbers of people with Alzheimers adn similar conditions. I assure you the number is quite high.
**** happens..and quite often too.

Those conditions are not spread through errors in the vast majority of cases. It's one thing to say that it spreads through genetic errors and another to say it's one. Also, part of those conditions are acquired throughout a life-time. Your own genetic code is determined in a short period of time. Even 1% is too large a rate to just dismiss as caused by an error.

But monogamy isn't the only form of mariage! You seem to be still stuck in "monogamic heterosexual is the only natural behavior" kind of thinking. Also, sex isn't only about reproduction, especially in the case of homosexuals. They can leave the reproduction part of sex to a mate they will later find.

Sigh...you're again forgetting the basic design purpose of a human.. which is made more difficult by this..condition.
Plainly put homosexuals are less likely to reproduce....they don't feel drawn to hte opposite sex (which is a crucial factor for it)...even if they do engage in said relations, its becaouse they HAVE TO do it, not becosue they WANT to do it.

*points to ancient greece for the nth time*

Also, explain the diference between "they have to" and "they want to" in this case? It's not like anyone's holding a gun at males across the world and telling them to engage in sexual relations with a woman.

Also, "plainly put, polygamics are more likely to reproduce than monogamic" so whatever that statement is worth...

[Mobius]

Why is that? Because of that statement?

No.. Let's jsut say I don't like the lifestyle in america...or should I say culture...as well as pediatric approach

Idem. I don't know why those Americans always have something to do about the subject(well, any subject).

Again, ancient greece didn't find trouble increasing their population.

Because a man could have:

A wife. Only a wife could give her husband "legitimate", or "official" children.
A pornè(that's where "porno" comes from). Basically a *****.
An etera(or etèra...I don't remember). Something between the wife and the pornè. They were good-looking and cultured(that's what I like, a woman you can **** and talk with    ).

Homosexuality was accepted, but, under all these circumstances...having children was usual. Keep in mind that people used to get married at the age of 12, so even homosexuals could have tried to...uhm... 

[Ghostavo]

Mobius, and what stops a homosexual from having a wife too? It didn't seem to stop the ancients greeks, did it?

[Mobius]

Mobius, and what stops a homosexual from having a wife too? It didn't seem to stop the ancients greeks, did it?

How can you call a guy "homosexual", if that guy has children?!? The simple fact that he had sex with a woman makes him a trans.

[Ghostavo]

Mobius, and what stops a homosexual from having a wife too? It didn't seem to stop the ancients greeks, did it?

How can you call a guy "homosexual", if that guy has children?!? The simple fact that he had sex with a woman makes him a trans.

There are plenty of men who call themselves homosexuals in spite of having children. It's called a preference of sexual partners.

[Mobius]

There are plenty of men who call themselves homosexuals in spite of having children. It's called a preference of sexual partners.

So? I call myself the FRED Lord. Am I the FRED Lord?

They can call themselves homosexuals, but having sex with a woman makes them more eterosexuals than many eterosexuals

[Ghostavo]

There are plenty of men who call themselves homosexuals in spite of having children. It's called a preference of sexual partners.

So? I call myself the FRED Lord. Am I the FRED Lord?

They can call themselves homosexuals, but having sex with a woman makes them more eterosexuals than many eterosexuals

It's called a preference for a reason. If I have A and but want B does that mean I like A more then I like B?

[Mobius]

We should call them with the name they deserve.

[Ghostavo]

We should call them with the name they deserve.

Even if they like the same sex more?

So every virgin on the planet is an unknown then? 

[Black Wolf]

Actually, now they have this new technology now where they can copy the DNA from one sperm to a blank egg and mate it with another sperm, effectively allowing homosexuals to have kids of their own.

Are you certain it wasn;t the other way around? I know I read an article about female-female mouse reproduction - the author was jokingly saying that men were becoming obsoletem which is why I'm certain of the genders - but at the time I read it male-male was much, much harder/less likely.

[Mobius]

So every virgin on the planet is an unknown then? 

Help me finding one...

Are you certain it wasn;t the other way around? I know I read an article about female-female mouse reproduction - the author was jokingly saying that men were becoming obsoletem which is why I'm certain of the genders - but at the time I read it male-male was much, much harder/less likely.

Confirmed. I read articles about male-free possible societies(stupid ones, though).

[Scuddie]

What does Ancient Greece have to do with ANYTHING?  I know a couple people who happen to be gay that have had sex with women more than once.  They enjoyed it on a physical level, but not on a hormonal level.  Homosexuality has nothing to do with what 'can' be done (i.e. a choice), but it is determined by hormonal responses.  It's probably how the gaydar works...  That is, if it's real.  Most (female) Pr0n stars are pleasured by both men and women in their movies.  They usually enjoy it to a degree, but most of them don't go to the bar to pick up chicks. 

If you take the definition of sexuality literally, every living animal is unisexual, and the word you are looking for is homoamorous.

[Ghostavo]

http://mindprod.com/ggloss/homoamorous.html

It seems it's the same as homosexual.

Also, I've been pointing out ancient greece since their society permited homosexual sex, in spite of them having a wife and kids.

[TrashMan]

Those conditions are not spread through errors in the vast majority of cases. It's one thing to say that it spreads through genetic errors and another to say it's one. Also, part of those conditions are acquired throughout a life-time. Your own genetic code is determined in a short period of time. Even 1% is too large a rate to just dismiss as caused by an error.

Show me your degree saying that you're an expert on Biology and Genetics, and I might be swayed.
However, many deases, conditions and defects are very common and we still don't know exactly why.

Also, explain the diference between "they have to" and "they want to" in this case? It's not like anyone's holding a gun at males across the world and telling them to engage in sexual relations with a woman.

Simple. I *CAN* eat shrimp.. but I don't like it. Ergo, I't's very unlikely I'll *EVER* eat it, except under extreeme circumstances.
Basicly, you're more likely to do what you like than what you don't like.
Heterosexuals are ATTRACTED to woman. They WANT to be with them, so they are more likely to marry and have children.

Homosexuals are not. Think about it. Would you go out and sleep with another male? What if it was the only way to get accepted? Or to get offspring?
I'ts basicly simple pressure...extreeme condition...Allmost as bad as having a gun pointed at your head...

Also, "plainly put, polygamics are more likely to reproduce than monogamic" so whatever that statement is worth...

Maby.. but it's not about quantity anyway.

I think I recall a study that coincluded that monogamy is better from the gentic stanpoint (diversity is more nuanced).

[Mobius]

I really wonder why you know so many things about the subject...

[Ghostavo]

Those conditions are not spread through errors in the vast majority of cases. It's one thing to say that it spreads through genetic errors and another to say it's one. Also, part of those conditions are acquired throughout a life-time. Your own genetic code is determined in a short period of time. Even 1% is too large a rate to just dismiss as caused by an error.

Show me your degree saying that you're an expert on Biology and Genetics, and I might be swayed.
However, many deases, conditions and defects are very common and we still don't know exactly why.

Show me your degree then. There is a diference between an error occuring in the genetic code and you inheriting one. The most common conditions which you described are common because it was inherited. Errors occuring on mass enough to justify even 1% of the population with a single condition is simply impossible.

Also, explain the diference between "they have to" and "they want to" in this case? It's not like anyone's holding a gun at males across the world and telling them to engage in sexual relations with a woman.

Simple. I *CAN* eat shrimp.. but I don't like it. Ergo, I't's very unlikely I'll *EVER* eat it, except under extreeme circumstances.
Basicly, you're more likely to do what you like than what you don't like.
Heterosexuals are ATTRACTED to woman. They WANT to be with them, so they are more likely to marry and have children.

Homosexuals are not. Think about it. Would you go out and sleep with another male? What if it was the only way to get accepted? Or to get offspring?
I'ts basicly simple pressure...extreeme condition...Allmost as bad as having a gun pointed at your head...

But if they are pressured to have offspring then surely that is because of their natural desires even if they prefer the same sex! It still leaves the obvious conclusion, they reproduce.


Let me put it this way. Imagine there was a specific gene that made people ugly as ****. They would be much less likely to reproduce then the "normal" people. Do you consider this a genetic defect?

[karajorma]

Sigh...you're again forgetting the basic design purpose of a human.. which is made more difficult by this..condition.
Plainly put homosexuals are less likely to reproduce....they don't feel drawn to hte opposite sex (which is a crucial factor for it)...even if they do engage in said relations, its becaouse they HAVE TO do it, not becosue they WANT to do it.

If you're going to claim that a reduction in the likelihood of reproduction is a genetic defect then I'm going to point out that by that logic high intelligence is one of the larger defects that exists.

And I give you the first couple of minutes of Idiocracy as my exhibit A for that claim.

And I'll leave you to decide whether or not you are also genetically defective then.

[TrashMan]

Intelligence is the main trait that defines a human. How can it possibly be a defect? And I fail to see how it stand in the way of reproduction..

There is a diference between an error occuring in the genetic code and you inheriting one. The most common conditions which you described are common because it was inherited. Errors occuring on mass enough to justify even 1% of the population with a single condition is simply impossible

I can tell you why becosue I don't know. Could be that one of the first humans had that defect and it it indeed became quite common. Maby it is partially passed on. Maby its a error purposly built in by nature. Some things are just FAR more likely to happen than others, and we rarely can say why. Biology is a very complicated matter after all...

But if they are pressured to have offspring then surely that is because of their natural desires even if they prefer the same sex! It still leaves the obvious conclusion, they reproduce.

Less ofthen that heterosexuals, since sex with the opposite sex isn't appealing to htem. But let's look at something else, shall we?

When choosing your life partner you look for someone who's phisycal and mental traits you like. Not even in nature do they breed unselectivly. Basicly you'd want your offspring to inherit as much from your partner as possible. By homosexuals that doesn't happen. You don't breed with your chosen life partner, you (maby) breed with someone else. It takes 3 to tango for homosexuals. Maby in the future 2 will be enough, but it would still require some outside intervention.

Let's face it - when it comes to mating and reproduction, a heterosexual is what you might call "a streamlined and efficient design", while a homosexual is not.

If you got a car that has the gas pedal and break pedal wires crossed would you stop for once second before calling it a defect? No, you wouldn't. You can still drive it, but that just wan't in the original blueprints. A fully working car is simply nbetter at what it's supposed to do.
This is basicly my whole point, a undenayable fact.

Some of the things that define a human male/female, both physicly and socially, simply work much more efficient and streamlined for heterosexuals. Thus, homosexuality is a defects or an error if you will.

Now if you excuse me, I got 2 seminars to write...
*curses databases*

[Flipside]

I'm going to start by pointing out that a 'social' difficulty in modern society has nothing whatsoever to do with genetics or 'errors', and everything to do with the stereotyping and refusal to accept something different that I'm seeing here in the article.

And yes, intelligence is a 'defect', it is spurious to our needs, which are to eat, drink and reproduce, animals all over the world manage that without any real level of intelligence whatsoever. In fact, intelligence often makes us hesitate where other creatures would not. It's a weakness as much as a strength. We are of unequal proportions now, without intelligence, we would be hopeless, but that is the niche we exploit, the 'defect' we took to extremes to maximise our place in that niche.

[Scuddie]

Intelligence is not a 'defect'.  All animals have certain levels of intelligence.  While humans may be one of the very few species with high level processing (morals, etc) as the primary way of thinking, we may be out smartened by an animal of low level processing (instinct, etc)  quite easily.

And yes, homosexuality IS a defect.  Not because of adaptive mutation, but because the hormones produced/not produced by the body do not reflect the genetic base of the male/female differential.  If homosexuality was genetic, it could not be considered a defect.  But because it is hormonal, it can be.