Author Topic: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?  (Read 38899 times)

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Offline nvsblmnc

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
...the Sathanes were hanging around the sun for several hours, if not even days.

That's how I always saw it, a pressure wave increasing with each repitition, very gradually degrading the star's gravitational field at first, but always growing faster and more effective.  The visual effect and subsequent Big Bad BangTM was just a final surge to force the star over the edge.

Just my opinion, though...
When the reactor explodes, it's usually a sign that you've taken too much damage.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Flak turrets? LRed? :P

 
Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Flak turrets? LRed? :P

The flak turrets and LRed on the Sathanas didn't have enough range to fire on the Colossus before it was destroyed.  At the very least, the 20% damage to Colossus systems will include melted beam cannons, heatsink damage and overheated reactors (if you did a perfect run for Bearbaiting:  4 BFReds, both Flak guns and the rear LRed).

I wonder how the Colossus could be disabled?  A few of its engine subsystems are invulnerable.  Though, the fighterbay I can see getting knocked out pretty easy (any more Colossi needs to have 2 or more fighterbays so you can't trap 240 fighters/bombers that easily).

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Ops, wrong thread. That post was for SF-Junky and his challenge :blah:

 
Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
i may be a kid, but since the GTVA rhules the entire known galaxy, why cant they just TAKE the resources? why cant they just tell the independent shipyards "hey you, yur workin fer us now! GET WORKIN ON MORE COLLIES!!!!!!!!! OOO-RAH!!!!!!!!!!"   :p
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Since when controlling a handful of systems means controlling a Galaxy? There are billions of stars! :P

 

Offline MercFox1

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
The GTVA inhabits a relatively microscopic portion of the galaxy, at the moment; besides, it's just not that simple to do that.
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Offline Hades

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
By Galactic they mean Space-fairing.
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 
Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
i may be a kid, but since the GTVA rhules the entire known galaxy, why cant they just TAKE the resources? why cant they just tell the independent shipyards "hey you, yur workin fer us now! GET WORKIN ON MORE COLLIES!!!!!!!!! OOO-RAH!!!!!!!!!!"   :p
Because workers would say:
"Hey you, we're on strike until we can have unions, free health care, free deuterium for our civilian ships, a pay rise every week ... and... um...
 oh, and you can't bomb us, because you won't have the shipyard! HA!"

Now a little more seriously, and back to the topic:

I think there should be no more Collossi, here's why:

A fleet of corvettes with a front mounted Mjolnir gun would be useful for hunting bigger ships down. Such a Cv could easily outmaneuver an SJ Sathanas and could be used in groups, with all ships behind the Jug (all it takes is a Pegasus to find out where the Cv's need to warp out), so the Big 'C' loses one job.
 The Corvettes would be useless against anything with good 360* coverage of main guns (unless it's a cruiser that gets killed with one or two Mjolnir shots) so a couple battleships, bigger than a destroyer, but much smaller than a juggernaught, say 3-4km long would need to be built. Their role could be hunting down destroyers, being flagships, or even blockades. Hunting down destroyers and corvettes was what the Big 'C' did best, but you don't really need a 5+ km ship to do that.
 The battleship would need LRMjolnirs (Long Range meaning some 10 km) mounted on rotating turrets to need only one beam cannon to cover both port/starboard, thus lowering main weapons cost (and with 10 such turrets we have the broadside of a Collossus). Less weapons = smaller size, and again smaller total cost. Smaller size = smaller engines required ... etc... and with a ship 4 km long, you could still put lots of armor, giving it similar HP's to the Collossus (judging by textures some parts of Big 'C' didn't have heavy external armor because the frame construction was visible) and some 50 turrets. That makes the Big 'C' WAY overpriced, with it's huge amount of turrets an advantage in only a few situations.
 To hunt down jugs with good all around coverage of main guns, 2 GTVBB's with support from the Mjolnir Cv's forming a battle line could broadside whatever may be used against the GTVA much more effectively than a Big 'C'.
 Since the BB's will be filled with reactors rather than fighterbays, we also need a carrier, more/less the size of the battleship. That way our beam carrying platforms (both the BB's and Cv's) could have almost endless waves of fighter and bomber support. So the last great advantage a Collossus has - it's hangar - can also be delivered to the battlefield better and cheaper.

Would a fleet of a Carrier + 2 Battleships + 10-15 Corvettes be cheaper than a single Collossus? Probably not, but it could be scattered to secure whole systems, and hunt down multiple Sathani simultaneously, things even 2 Collossi can't do.
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Offline nvsblmnc

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
I like the idea of a specialised anti-juggernaught fleet, but the problem I see is that the Shivans have been known to sling a destroyer or two  at forces attempting to hold them off, and a Ravana's frontal attack can quickly toast the known corvette designs.

As these ships traditionally can't take anywhere near the punishment (individually) of a single, heavily fortified ship, this force would probably suffer heavy attrition when engaging Shivan targets, requiring a constant stream of replacement ships and personnel - potentially a massive and sustained draim on resources and morale.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Long-range weapons & stand-off tactics FTW! ;7
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
:welcomesilver:

Because workers would say:
"Hey you, we're on strike until we can have unions, free health care, free deuterium for our civilian ships, a pay rise every week ... and... um...
 oh, and you can't bomb us, because you won't have the shipyard! HA!"

Steadfast?

I think there should be no more Collossi, here's why:

A fleet of corvettes with a front mounted Mjolnir gun would be useful for hunting bigger ships down. Such a Cv could easily outmaneuver an SJ Sathanas and could be used in groups, with all ships behind the Jug (all it takes is a Pegasus to find out where the Cv's need to warp out), so the Big 'C' loses one job.

You actually forget:

1) The incredible number of spacecraft housed on the Sathanas;
2) The fact that Mjolnirs are fragile and possibly expensive;
3) The number of reinforcements the Shivans can sortie. The first Sathanas was unlucky, its backup was destroyed. But in a nebular environment there should be reinforcements ready to be sortied. One or two Rakshasas can easily destroy a Deimos, especially if they attack the corvette on its rear;

The Corvettes would be useless against anything with good 360* coverage of main guns (unless it's a cruiser that gets killed with one or two Mjolnir shots) so a couple battleships, bigger than a destroyer, but much smaller than a juggernaught, say 3-4km long would need to be built. Their role could be hunting down destroyers, being flagships, or even blockades. Hunting down destroyers and corvettes was what the Big 'C' did best, but you don't really need a 5+ km ship to do that.

Have you considered the GTD Hades? It was a superdestroyer, and it got killed. Keep in mind that the Colossus faced many ships without even resupplying or going repairs(Into the Maelstrom excluded). The Repulse, the Andronicus and minor ships like the Danton or the Congreve would have reduced the combat capability of a Superdestroyer. They would have easily destroyed it.

And the NTF outmanuevered the Colossus. A Superdestroyer would have been destroyed.

The battleship would need LRMjolnirs (Long Range meaning some 10 km) mounted on rotating turrets to need only one beam cannon to cover both port/starboard, thus lowering main weapons cost (and with 10 such turrets we have the broadside of a Collossus). Less weapons = smaller size, and again smaller total cost. Smaller size = smaller engines required ... etc... and with a ship 4 km long, you could still put lots of armor, giving it similar HP's to the Collossus (judging by textures some parts of Big 'C' didn't have heavy external armor because the frame construction was visible) and some 50 turrets. That makes the Big 'C' WAY overpriced, with it's huge amount of turrets an advantage in only a few situations.

A very heavily armored and armed Superdestroyer would cost...a lot. The Colossus was big, it didn't need a complete plating coverage.

And again, Mjolnirs are fragile.

To hunt down jugs with good all around coverage of main guns, 2 GTVBB's with support from the Mjolnir Cv's forming a battle line could broadside whatever may be used against the GTVA much more effectively than a Big 'C'.
 Since the BB's will be filled with reactors rather than fighterbays, we also need a carrier, more/less the size of the battleship. That way our beam carrying platforms (both the BB's and Cv's) could have almost endless waves of fighter and bomber support. So the last great advantage a Collossus has - it's hangar - can also be delivered to the battlefield better and cheaper.

Two heavy Superdestroyers and a Carrier. At this point, a Colossus is cheaper! :P

Would a fleet of a Carrier + 2 Battleships + 10-15 Corvettes be cheaper than a single Collossus? Probably not, but it could be scattered to secure whole systems, and hunt down multiple Sathani simultaneously, things even 2 Collossi can't do.

This "fleet" can be easily destroyed. Juggernauts and destroyers vaporize corvettes(Sathanas and Ravana), the Carrier will need continuous cover and, as I said, the superdestroyers would be vulnerable in certain circumstances.

There should always be a certain number of fighters defending this fleet. A waste of money and a terrible risk. 20 fighters can form patrol on a Colossus efficiently.

Try to imagine something like The Great Hunt, with one addition: many, many Shivan bombers. The pilots will have to move continuously as the warships have to maintain a safe distance for obvious reasons. This will result in extensive damage to the fleet.

By The Way, Welcome to the HLPBB! :D

 
Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
You actually forget:

1) The incredible number of spacecraft housed on the Sathanas;
2) The fact that Mjolnirs are fragile and possibly expensive;
3) The number of reinforcements the Shivans can sortie. The first Sathanas was unlucky, its backup was destroyed. But in a nebular environment there should be reinforcements ready to be sortied. One or two Rakshasas can easily destroy a Deimos, especially if they attack the corvette on its rear;
Actually not:

1) That's why my fleet needs a carrier, and a pretty big one;
2) That's why I want to put them inside a Corvette chassis, not a turret with an engine;
3) With a single Big 'C'- once it's there, you can only warp out... with a fleet, you can warp out the corvette ambushed by a capship in a matter of seconds (that would require a change in tactics so the Cv can warp out instantly without the Command's green light), and warp 3 new ones or a Battleship somewhere where the enemy can't reach it with it's main guns. In other words- such a specialized fleet can play the Shivans' game of capship dogfighting.
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Have you considered the GTD Hades? It was a superdestroyer, and it got killed. Keep in mind that the Colossus faced many ships without even resupplying or going repairs(Into the Maelstrom excluded). The Repulse, the Andronicus and minor ships like the Danton or the Congreve would have reduced the combat capability of a Superdestroyer. They would have easily destroyed it.
But it had almost unarmored subsystems and like 20 anti strike craft turrets...
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And the NTF outmanuevered the Colossus. A Superdestroyer would have been destroyed.
Because a single huge and slow ship is detectable from thousands of kilometers away, so all you have to do is warp out 4 klicks away from it and you're safe.
 Let's say the NTF group warps out at a safe distance from the capships. They still have a dozen of corvettes and a thousand strike craft to worry about.
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A very heavily armored and armed Superdestroyer would cost...a lot. The Colossus was big, it didn't need a complete plating coverage.
But since it's 1,5-2 kilometers shorter, it won't need so much research (actually- almost no research, use the shipbuilding experience of the Big 'C', and develop only the rotating turrets with beam cannons), thus lowering it's price. Also, since it would require smaller subsystems, more production facilities would be able to make them, again lowering the price. And the smaller size would mean less material for the frame and armor (well maybe not the armor since it needs more HP than a Hades), further lowering the price and making it possible to get it built a lot quicker.
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And again, Mjolnirs are fragile.
That's not really much of a problem when they'll be inside heavily armoured turrets.
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Two heavy Superdestroyers and a Carrier. At this point, a Colossus is cheaper! :P
But not by a huge amount since most of the research and development is already done.
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This "fleet" can be easily destroyed. Juggernauts and destroyers vaporize corvettes(Sathanas and Ravana), the Carrier will need continuous cover and, as I said, the superdestroyers would be vulnerable in certain circumstances.
But a well placed corvette in 'A Monster in the Mist' appeared to be a problem for the Sath :p Now imagine it had a Mjolnir instead of the 2 pretty weak beams :beamz:
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There should always be a certain number of fighters defending this fleet. A waste of money and a terrible risk. 20 fighters can form patrol on a Colossus efficiently.

I agree here- a dozen (or more) fighters and bombers would need to cover each capship and many more to escort the Cv's. But a task force still has the advantage of warping in/out in multiple places, surprising the enemy many times, even if it's the enemy who planned the ambush.

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Try to imagine something like The Great Hunt, with one addition: many, many Shivan bombers. The pilots will have to move continuously as the warships have to maintain a safe distance for obvious reasons. This will result in extensive damage to the fleet.
Since a carrier would have much more strike craft maintenance and repair facilities than a Hecate, I think it would be possible to arrange enough fighters to cover both corvettes without the need to move from one ship to the other continuously, even when all fighters come home damaged from all missions.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Ops...I was writing a reply and an energy failure cancelled my work :mad:

I'll reply ASAP... :mad:

 
Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
BengalTiger, VSlash is not weak.  It's not the strongest, but it can be compared to the BGreen in terms of sustained firepower.

Also, when fighting Shivans, don't try to outnumber them as you will fail miserably.  Would you use masses of cruisers, corvettes and a couple of destroyers/supdestroyers vs. Shivans, or build a few upgraded Colossus juggernauts and have them blockade a jump node?  I can tell you right away that anything below a superdestroyer will get turned into mincemeat by constant Shivan beam fire (think waves of Lilith cruiser wings).

Besides, the Colossus was quite decent (though it should have Vasudan beams and reactors instead of crappy Terran ones), so the GTVA simply needs to develop better technology to combat Shivans effectively (long range beams, precision anti-ship fire-control systems to prioritize enemy beam cannons/turrets first & other vital subsystems, support ships that re-arm/repair hull + subsystems, stealth bombers to deliver surprise strikes against warships, etc.).

 
Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Guess I've stirred up the hive...

BengalTiger, VSlash is not weak.  It's not the strongest, but it can be compared to the BGreen in terms of sustained firepower.

From Freespace Wiki:

Sustained damage per second: VSlash-688, BGreen-776, Mjolnir-1500
So the VSlash is pretty powerfull (a bit more than I thought), but Mjolnir is close to 2,5 VSlashes.

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Also, when fighting Shivans, don't try to outnumber them as you will fail miserably.  Would you use masses of cruisers, corvettes and a couple of destroyers/supdestroyers vs. Shivans, or build a few upgraded Colossus juggernauts and have them blockade a jump node?  I can tell you right away that anything below a superdestroyer will get turned into mincemeat by constant Shivan beam fire (think waves of Lilith cruiser wings).
And that's why pulling back without bureaucracy and exiting subspace behind the Sathanas is an important part of the use of the corvettes. Also, I never wrote that I want 'masses of cruisers'...
And another thing I didn't write about before- recon. With stealth fighters tested in Freespace 2, a few years later they should be more available, allowing the GTVA to quickly find a juggernaut without escorts to shoot down.
With 5 Mjolnir Corvettes, each doing 1500 HP/second damage, and a battleship with 10 such beams, it would take them 44,5 seconds to eat the 1 000 000 HP of the Sathanas. A bit less with a strike force from the carrier, lets say 35-40 seconds. After that, everybody jumps the hell out, and the couple hostile cruisers that arrive aren't going to do much damage.
Also for the price of my anti-juggernaut task force you could build a Big 'C' and a few destroyers maybe... Not really that much if you want to warp out every ship in danger and replace it by a few new ones in better positions.
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Besides, the Colossus was quite decent (though it should have Vasudan beams and reactors instead of crappy Terran ones), so the GTVA simply needs to develop better technology to combat Shivans effectively (long range beams, precision anti-ship fire-control systems to prioritize enemy beam cannons/turrets first & other vital subsystems, support ships that re-arm/repair hull + subsystems, stealth bombers to deliver surprise strikes against warships, etc.).
I agree that the Colossus was a decent ship, but there wasn't any other jug to save it when it was getting shot up, and that's why I want 2 ships, with 50% the mass of a Big 'C' (plus the carrier).
And making an even bigger jug will probably end up in an even bigger faliure, because the Shivans always seem to get larger guns than the GTVA. The stealth strike craft and hull repairing support ships are a whole different story here, but I guess they'd fit in the carrier's hangarbays :p
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Offline Rico

Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?

The canon information that we do have confirms that the entire fleet has been destroyed, it's right there.
No, the whole of the 3rd fleet was destroyed, however there is still the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th and who knows how many other fleets GTVA has  :wtf:

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Besides we all saw the Sathanas take out that hecate in under 5s in Bearbating.  What good would making more Hecate's do when the Colossus was really the only thing that could stand toe to toe with a Sathanas.  I think the  GTVA should build more Colossus' at least for the meantime while it works to develop better destroyers or super destroyers that can actually last against a Sathanas.
Perfect example, the Colossus is the only ship that can stand toe to toe against a sathanas. Why waste $$ and lives on ships that are inadiquate. Its like sending in 20 WW2 shermans against a modern Leopard 2, ur wasting your time/lives  :nervous:
« Last Edit: September 15, 2007, 12:49:07 pm by Rico »

 
Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
It may be plausible that the Hades would replace the Colossus as the flagship of the GTVA, otherwise the GTVA would have expended most of their resources spending decades on rebuilding a portal similar to the Knossos.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
The Hades?!?

The contruction of a second Colossus, if the project is public, would take about eigh years in my opinion. And the Terran Knossos would take less than five years. In the second case I'm assuming we're talking about something like TrashMan's Terran jump gate, not the Inferno GTI Melia ;)

 
Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
What makes you think the Knosso will take less then 5 years? We're talking about building a completely foreign piece of technology. This will be the first time GTVA scientists work with Ancient technology and it isn't just some fighter or cruiser.