Author Topic: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?  (Read 39060 times)

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
I don't think the Vasudans worked for Nankam Aeronautical. It would be strange since they have their own industry giants and Terrans can simply buy the results of their research from them.

As for the Colossus, remember that in a game like FreeSpace there's more Terran stuff than Vasudan stuff. The Colossus is ebsentially Terran, and Terrans have plenties of ships(Amazons, Argo, 3 classes of cruisers, many spacecraft). They don't even have a heavy transport like the Argo. But Inferno solved the problem  :cool:

Eh?  The Colossus was a joint venture, about 50% Terran, 50% Vasudan.  Why the warship didn't use Vasudan beams when they were clearly better than their Terran equivalents (ESPECIALLY the slash beams, switching out the TerSlashes for VSlashes makes a noticeable improvement in firepower) I have no clue.  Ah well, my campaign solves this little issue quite nicely  :nod:

 

Offline Vip

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
But Inferno solved the problem  :cool:

Heh, the first time I looked at Inferno's tech-room I was completely "WTF ?!"... I expected new crafts, but not so many. Still, they look... poor to say the least.

And yes, Vasudan beams are definitely more efficient than their Terran counterparts. Still, they are rarely used (basically only Sobeks and Hatshepsuts; Typhons are prone to system failures, and Mentu was never equiped with any beam). However, Vasudan beams on Colossus would rock the day...

BTW. What campaign, Fang_Taichou ? ;D
Lieutenant Commander Richard "Viper" Pred

 
Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
But Inferno solved the problem  :cool:

Heh, the first time I looked at Inferno's tech-room I was completely "WTF ?!"... I expected new crafts, but not so many. Still, they look... poor to say the least.

And yes, Vasudan beams are definitely more efficient than their Terran counterparts. Still, they are rarely used (basically only Sobeks and Hatshepsuts; Typhons are prone to system failures, and Mentu was never equiped with any beam). However, Vasudan beams on Colossus would rock the day...

BTW. What campaign, Fang_Taichou ? ;D

A campaign I've been working on.  So far I have 33 missions done (though they need tweaks here and there).  I have more details posted back on page 12 of this thread concerning the Colossus for my campaign (though it's been changed a bit since I posted its specs).

 
Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
The Colossus was suppose to be a joint effort between the Vasudans and Terrans. So why does it use Terran beams instead? Also, is the crew mostly consisted of Vasudans or Terrans?

 

Offline Vip

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Okey here's another of my crazy theories !

I don't know how accurate the is the info in the "Armaments" table in Colossus entry on FSWiki, but according to it, it has far less weapons than the narrator in the cutscenes produly presents. "Forty five laser turrets, fifteen flak guns, twelve missile batteries and twelve beam cannons", not to mention "60 fighter and bomber wings". However, we never see Collie's fighters, and it has armament much different.

I always assumed that they were short on time and needed to deploy the Colossus ASAP to gain advantage in Epsilon Pegasi, but the Colossus wasn't armed by then. So they gave it everything they had at the time -  a few blob turrets, 12 flaks, 10 missile launchers, 10 aaaf beams and 13 Terran beams. Later, it was needed to stop the NTF from reaching Gamma Draconis and to fight the Sathanas, so it didn't have time to be re-armed. Should it be given more time, Vasudan beams would be installed.

Yes, I know, no proof for that... But it's an explanation as good as any other ^^
Lieutenant Commander Richard "Viper" Pred

 

Offline MercFox1

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Anyways, I've read all 18 pages of this and here's my thoughts:

Another Colossus? I would say YES. But any more than one is a waste of resources. Why one alone wouldn't be a waste of resources?

* Emotional Rallying Point - I'm sure there were minds in the GTVA Security Council that would have rather seen 12 Destroyers or whatever number during the construction of the first Colossus; towards the end of the 2nd Great War, I'm sure those minds would have seen the impressive kill record the Colossus put up, especially against a relatively unknown, new, outclassing-in-every-area Superjuggernaut. Not to mention, despite the loss of 30,000 strong, the lives they saved by merely being a target. Rear Admiral Koth, a notable and decorated NTF general, tried to ram the Colossus; if faced with one or two other destroyers, he might have ran or not pursued the course he did. This is a solitary example, but it nonetheless displays how the battlefield changes when such a construct occupies it. Because Koth chose to kamakazie instead of fleeing, who knows who else was saved from other hit-and-run attacks Koth would have participated in?

* Extensive Testing and Combat-Evaluation Period - You can objectively say that the 2nd Great War was the greatest Op-Eval period a combat ship can ever hope to go through. For being a first-generation "prototype", it destroyed 9 ships (varying from a NTF cruiser to a Shivan juggernaut) and was pivotal in many victories. For being designed to counteract the Lucifer, it outperformed itself in many areas. 2nd Generation refits and design modifications can only improve the excellent foundation the Colossus platform was built on.

* A Semblance of Security - Even if the public does or doesn't know how much of a supposed "logistical nightmare" the Colossus is, it's hard to NOT feel safe with a Colossus in orbit. The veterans of FS2 know better, as there are Sathanas' lurking systems away ready to shred it, if indeed that is their motive, so this isn't as "pro" of a Pro.

* Economic Boosters - Counting on 1 and 3, you could expect to see a boost in the economy of the system designated the construction point of the future juggernaut. With the need for secrecy gone and the construction needs of the Colossus released, its possible that many systems and companies would attempt to win the contract to build the Colossus, increasing the competition and economic plights of many of the systems that could be affected by the loss of Capella and many fleet resources. Once a bid is won, the winning system would most definitely see a large increase in trade and tourism, as intergalactic tourists would want to see the construction of this ship that was once secret. Losing systems, while not in possession of the contract, would not be poorly served by the increase in infrastructure and production ability. The GTVA could contract out the production of other ships, such as new Aeolus cruisers (Aeolus' would be a logical choice, since the reduction in force would necesitate an increase in multi-faceted ships), Deimos corvettes, and larger vessels. At the same time, those systems ramping up their capabilities would also probably need an expanded work force; Capellan refugees would probably be welcomed with open-arms! If I was a Capellan refugee, its no question I would be homesick, but a new planet that needs me, instead of shunning me, would be a very welcome sight.

The downsides?

* Cost - No question that after the collapse of Capella, the GTVA would go through an economic recession. To pay for the ship would be difficult, but not impossible. Note that in the loss of Capella, countless military assets were lost, but except for the 3rd Fleet HQ; all of the other Alliance civillian and trade installations (including those of Polaris, Regulus, and Sirius - I can say this because the Alliance was never sent to destroy any production or civillian installations. The closest thing ever to a civillian craft being destroyed was the NTT Sunder or the NTSC Hinton. It was never mentioned in the briefings (IIRC), and it also wouldn't make sense to if the GTVA was looking to retake those systems quickly. The GTVA could already out-produce the NTF by incredible margins, anyway.) would still be back in the other GTVA systems. The groundwork for a military is there, it's just there isn't as big a military.

* Logistics - Yeah, it would be tough. This ship isn't very manueverable, isn't as flexible, and certainly consolidates firepower that could be better served elsewhere with separate destroyers. Of course, you wouldn't make one Colossus, and that would be it. Other ships would unquestionably follow, negating this effect.

* The Need? - As Alpha 1 said in the end of FS1, "I'm told we can expect them again, but not in my lifetime." He was unequivocally right; they didn't come in his lifetime, but the fact that they might come again is enough motivation to do a lot. This massive warship would be completely ineffective against the pressing needs of anti-piracy and police action, but where's the short-term, long-term balance? It's my opinion that the pirates wouldn't be anywhere near as prevalent (outlying systems, such as in Derelict, would probably already have that problem, anyways) as in some of the non-canon, post-FS2 campaigns, but you can't just dismiss the pirates. On the other side of the same coin, if you spend all of your resources trying to eradicate the pirates, you will be woefully unprepared for the unpredictable Shivan advance.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Removed Enif Station; mistakenly thought that was in Capella, it's really in Epsilon Pegasi.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2007, 01:42:38 pm by MercFox1 »
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Thoughts?

Uhm...

:welcomesilver:

Good theories in your first post! :D

 

Offline MercFox1

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Thoughts?

Uhm...

:welcomesilver:

Good theories in your first post! :D

Hehe, I've been beamed!
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Offline Hades

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Are all of your limps still intact? :)
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 

Offline Vip

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
My, long have I waited for a first post like that... Anyway, great theories, keep it up MercFox1 !
Lieutenant Commander Richard "Viper" Pred

 

Offline MercFox1

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
I hope so.

Question, is there a concrete number where if a Colossus wasn't created, X many other destroyers could be constructed in it's place? I'm sure the time to build a destroyer would be sufficient. The Colossus' build time would undoubtedly be reduced from the first generation, but a close number could still be estimated.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2007, 02:04:09 pm by MercFox1 »
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Offline Hades

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
It would be about 12 years, I would say, because they need to test field checks and such.
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Hehe, I've been beamed!

By Mobius, the Welcome Ace. Remember! :D

Question, is there a concrete number where if a Colossus wasn't created, X many other destroyed could be constructed in it's place? I'm sure the time to build a destroyer would be sufficient. The Colossus' build time would undoubtedly be reduced from the first generation, but a close number could still be estimated.

Colossus = 12 Luciferi

12 Luciferi = 18 destroyers

That's what I think IMO...

It would be about 12 years, I would say, because they need to test field checks and such.

No, they just have to quickly redesign and build it. It would take 8 or so years...unless they make it another supersecret project. It would need about 20 years, in that case.

 

Offline MercFox1

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Another thought I just had. Going over my first post again, I mentioned the loss of countless military assets. I just got to thinking, what about the money that remained to support the GTVA's fleet?

Think about it (however grim it may be). The need to pay for probably a couple hundred thousand soldier's salaries is gone. The resources kept in reserve to retrofit or repair all of the ships in combat are suddenly freed up. I think the biggest loss incurred to the GTVA through the whole process is the loss of manpower rather than the loss of equipment. It'll probably take only maybe 5-10 years to get the GTVA military up to snuff again, but the experience lost could take even longer to replace.

The upside of that is, new pilots and ship captains would be growing up with new designs and classes. For example, an admiral used to piloting an Orion can't do the same things at the helm of a Hecate. I'm pretty sure that no one with the rank of Admiral in the GTVA at the time of the 2nd Great War got there by only piloting a Hecate, at least an Orion or Leviathan or something else should have been in there. With more exclusive support to the Hecates (which, in my opinion, would see much greater demand in the post-FS2 world now that a combination of flexibility AND brute force is needed), their effectiveness could be greatly increased.

To take an example of real life, before someone ran the 4 minute mile, it was widely thought that it was impossible; after Roger Bannister did so, if Wikipedia isn't lying to me, 14 people ran times under 4 minutes (including Bannister), including some incredibly low times. Point is, once someone breaks the barrier, it's easy to analyze and discover what needs to change and what needs to stay the same. Military deployment of Hecates, as big of a stretch as this is, are in my mind pretty close to the same thing. Someone just needs to figure out the best way to use them.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
All I can say is:

:yes:

The FreeSpace Wiki needs you, really :)

 
Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
MercFox definitely has excellent points about building another Colossus.  One thing I would like to add is that, the Colossus is the ONLY warship the GTVA had which wouldn't get wasted by a single volley of a Sathanas or even a Ravana.  For that matter, it's the only vessel with a reasonable chance of entering Shivan territory, perform its missions then escaping alive (my campaign has an upgraded Colossus under the command of GTVI & SOC, who used it for special operations within a Shivan nebula).

 

Offline MercFox1

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
All I can say is:

:yes:

The FreeSpace Wiki needs you, really :)

Yeah, I've used the Wiki a bunch of times. Never edited it, though...
Been a fan of FS since before it came out. It all started with Descent 2. When I heard they were making an "outside" version, I was hooked. Thus, my fandom with the Freespace series started even before it was out.

With the SCP, it's really been great. I'm still a tiny newb with some of the modding and stuff, but I'm learning quick. I'm just hoping all the new ships and stuff haven't messed up my chances of playing Multi (which I also recently found out about, here).

Thanks, Fang. Hehehe, doesn't hurt to be a big RTS guy sometimes. Helps you think about the big picture.
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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Well, the GTVA can barely maintain its systems under its control...I exclude missions deep in Shivan space(Into the Lion's Den is a pseudo-exception).

Yeah, I've used the Wiki a bunch of times. Never edited it, though...
Been a fan of FS since before it came out. It all started with Descent 2. When I heard they were making an "outside" version, I was hooked. Thus, my fandom with the Freespace series started even before it was out.

With the SCP, it's really been great. I'm still a tiny newb with some of the modding and stuff, but I'm learning quick. I'm just hoping all the new ships and stuff haven't messed up my chances of playing Multi (which I also recently found out about, here).

Thanks, Fang. Hehehe, doesn't hurt to be a big RTS guy sometimes. Helps you think about the big picture.

You should have joined the community long ago. I can imagine you as an Administrator/Moderator.  :drevil:

 

Offline MercFox1

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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
You know what, I should have. I've been to the HLPBB plenty of times before and just looked in. I always thought I was so far behind I could never catch up, but I used to be big on FS2Multi, back when PXO still worked, I have FSO up to snuff, played through Sync, Transcend, Derelict, a little Inferno, FS1, Silent Threat, FS2 countless times, made a few maps (that aren't too bad actually), and I'm about to see if I can find some FSO multiplayer games.

Go figure why I thought I could never catch up.  :ick:
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Re: Post Capella, would another Colossus be built?
Well, I have also lurked around(a few months, 6-7 I think) before registering :)