yeah, I personally don't agree with many aspects of catholicism. Yet as JR2 pointed out, most Catholics are indeed Christians.
Karajorma: I didn't say the motivation for Christians has to do with them being afraid of Hell, far from it. I said it has to do with loving God. Which is a far greater and stronger motivation, which would keep people from straying from the Christian ideal more than say, the ideal of Kharma. That's another point: As per the doctrine of most Kharma-based religions, if someone screws up, they're reincarnated as a lower person, someone who is worse off in life than they were before, and if they do good, they wind up being reincarnated as a more successful, higher-up person, until one achieves some sense of Enlightenment, whether it's oneness with the Universe, as in Hinduism, or if it's complete nothingness, as in Bhuddism, isn't it? Well then, so what if I screw up now? I have an infinite number of lives to get to where I'm going anyway, right? Even if I drag myself down to the level of a snail, the only way to go when you're at the bottom is up, right? So who cares if I kill a person for their money now, I'll just do better next time around, right? Are you beginning to see how Love is a better motivation for love?
Mefustae: You're right, that is quite a tray of crackers. Thanks for getting into it! :-) Let me try to explain it a little bit better:
Mefustae, that's not what I'm saying at all. If you were a PERFECT person, you could go to Heaven without accepting Christ's sacrifice at all. But I assure you, there is no perfect person on Earth- not you, not me- besides Jesus Christ. If that's what you mean by "Good Person," and you think yourself capable of it, then by all means, try. But I would warn you that you've grossly overestimated your own capabilities. As I said before, though, you do need to accept a gift given to you in order to receive it. The gift is being offered freely, someone else payed the price for it.
If you look at the post I was replying to when I said that, you'd see that jr2 was attempting to imply that I would be "saved regardless", which I took to the extreme to mean that he was suggesting that God actually loved us enough to provide salvation regardless. But as you say, He doesn't, and his love remains ultimately conditional.
He's right. you are saved regardless. It is not conditional, unless you think that it is a condition that a gift freely given must be received. I have this nicely wrapped present that I intend to give you on Christmas Eve. A million dollars. Now in order to be able to add that million dollars to your bank account, you need to take it into your hands, do you not? That is the only condition on God's love. Receive the gift freely given.
Also note that I never said I would try to be "perfect". I merely asked if I would go to Heaven if I were a good person - charitable, kind, good to thy neighbor and all that jazz - but still prefer to keep an open mind about the universe. Apparently, this isn't the case. Perhaps you could enlighten me on something, and you'll have to forgive me for the rather loaded question: Does a good, atheistic man go to hell while a criminal who repents his sins and pledges his belief in Jesus Christ go to heaven?
What you fail to realize is that, to a perfect being, the only person you could call a "good person" is one who has no bad in him. You can not stand before God and call yourself a good person and expect to be taken seriously if you have done any wrong in your entire life. Yes, a good atheistic man would go to Hell while a criminal who repents of his sins and calls on the name of the Lord does indeed go to Heaven. The only exception I can possibly think of is a very shaky one indeed, one which I can only even consider the possibility of because it is simply not explained in full in Scripture. You see, in the Bible, Heaven is described as a place where there are "people from every nation." Some take this to mean that the Apocalypse won't happen until the so-called "Good News" is heard all around the world. Others take it to mean that even people who do not hear about Christ, and thus could not possibly be followers of Him, wind up in Heaven. I take it to be a little of both. But it's not much to stand on, not to mention that you, having heard of Christ's sacrifice and still being in refusal of it, would not be able to stand on this at all.
Further, you seem to misunderstand the meaning of the word 'free', as there is a price in gaining God's supposedly all-encompassing love. Nothing is free, nothing at all, every reaction must have been initiated by an equal and opposite action: You see, you need to believe in him. In a cultural vacuum, that wouldn't be a problem. However, we don't live in a religious vacuum, we live instead in a world with many different cultures and belief systems. As such, one would need to sacrifice a part of your culture, and the culture of your forebears, just to gain access to something that jr2, Trashman, and even yourself have repeatedly said is free. Of course, that's not even going into the rules and regulations required for keeping God's "free" love, which is a whole 'nother tray of crackers.
If there is no other part of my post you read, read this!!!No. I understand freedom and free gifts perfectly. You seem to have a failing at understanding the word "gift." I can offer you lunch at my expense instead of yours. That is a gift. Yet you need to 1. take me up on it and 2. eat the food before you can obtain nourishment from it. The gift of salvation is no different. Christ paid the cost of life. He offers said life to you free of charge. It is not a so-called "free lunch." He paid for it. It's free to you, however.
Yes, a relationship with Christ changes you. That is the whole basis of our contribution to this entire thread. The change is indeed, for the better though. It doesn't happen for any reason other than your own willingness to make it happen, however. Although, I would ask: upon realizing fully what Christ did for us, and what it means, who would be left unchanged? That's not a question for you to answer at this point in your life.
Rules and regulations? You say that like there's hundreds, yet there are two: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength," which, again, if you fully accept what Jesus did for you, there's really no way NOT to do this, and the second is simply what Christ states as the sole unforgivable sin, blaspheming the Holy Spirit. This is the only thing in the entire Bible, out of all of the laws of Moses, the ten commandments, the entire book of Leviticus, this is the one thing which you can not be redeemed from by the sacrifice of Christ. It doesn't say why, and is speculated about by many.
Is it really so costly for you to accept a gift? Wow, birthdays and Christmas must have really sucked for you as a kid...
