Author Topic: Admiral Bosch  (Read 17540 times)

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It's possible, but extremely unlikely.  If all the Knossos devices led into or out of the nebula then it would be (somewhat) reasonable to assume the system's past destruction made the construction of those gates a necessity.  The 3rd Knossos outside the nebula, while not entirely eliminating your theory from consideration, does make it far more of a leap to arrive at your conclusion.

Canonically we've only been shown 1 method for destroying a subspace node: A detonation of sufficient magnitude while something is still partially inside a jump corridor.  Travel through subspace has the rather steep requirement of...oh, a subspace drive.  No matter how devastating a supernova's shockwave might be, it's extremely unlikely it's going to travelling through anything but normal space.  After all, a subspace node has no real footprint in normal space, your hud has to indicate them with a graphic because there's no normal way to even see them, and without activating a jump drive you could fly through it over and over and never get anywhere but the other side (of the graphic).

The Knossos stabilizes (or creates?) subspace nodes, but any speculation on the initial cause of instability is just that: Speculation.  In this case though it's speculation without a reasonable grounds, because supernovas don't have jump drives.
Everything is better with monkeys.  Even pie.

That is the best first post I have ever seen.

 
I don't believe a supernova itself can harm a jump node, but the effects of it might.

Consider: jump nodes require a gravity well in order to stay stable. I'm no expert in star implosions, but don't neutron stars or white dwarfs have a much weaker gravity than a main sequence star? The jump nodes might destabilize due to the gravity weakening.
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?" -DEATH, Discworld

"You can fight like a krogan, run like a leopard, but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard!"

 
I have little doubt that he was taken away to be "probed" by the Shivans.  Just goes to show some people get exactly what they deserve  ;7

 

Offline karajorma

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And how did one get from GD to the nebula?

KNOSSOS PORTAL... maby supernovas DO collapse all nodes....freaky

And maybe they don't. No evidence in either direction.

Consider: jump nodes require a gravity well in order to stay stable. I'm no expert in star implosions, but don't neutron stars or white dwarfs have a much weaker gravity than a main sequence star? The jump nodes might destabilize due to the gravity weakening.

Neutron stars have to have more mass than the sun to form in the first place. So although the change in mass of a supernova event may have some effect it certainly doesn't follow that a neutron star wouldn't be able to have jump nodes.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 11:58:04 am by karajorma »
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Offline Mobius

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Neutron stars have to have more mass than the sun to form in the first place. So although the change in mass of a supernova event may have some effect it certainly doesn't follow that a neutron star wouldn't be able to have jump nodes.

Correct :yes:

Canonically we've only been shown 1 method for destroying a subspace node: A detonation of sufficient magnitude while something is still partially inside a jump corridor.  Travel through subspace has the rather steep requirement of...oh, a subspace drive.  No matter how devastating a supernova's shockwave might be, it's extremely unlikely it's going to travelling through anything but normal space.  After all, a subspace node has no real footprint in normal space, your hud has to indicate them with a graphic because there's no normal way to even see them, and without activating a jump drive you could fly through it over and over and never get anywhere but the other side (of the graphic).

Both the Lucifer and the Bastion collapsed the nodes when they were "cut in two parts", one in normal space and the other in subspace. It could be the only possible condition, the Bastion could have completely entered subspace before exploding, but it didn't. I assume the Nereid did the same thing. There must have been ships on the GTVA side of the node(either coming from Capella or placed there to defend GTVA space from Shivan ships), the shockwave and the debris would have damaged or destroyed freighters, transports and cruisers(and possibly corvettes and destroyers).

So, though my theory isn't fully supported by canon, I think the shockwave wasn't enough to collapse the node.

 
Consider: jump nodes require a gravity well in order to stay stable.
I haven't perused the Freespace reference bible lately, but the techroom topic on subspace only mentions the requirement of a massive gravity well for short range intra-system jumps: In other words, that type of subspace travel is only possible because of the gravity well (star). 

Unlike inter-system jumps, an in system jump is essentially creating it's own bridge to another point in a star system.  Before the jump drive is engaged there wasn't a corridor from point A to B: The drive both allows transit through subspace and creates the road you travel along, as it were.

Subspace travel between systems utilizes existing corridors; the starting point and destination aren't in our control and the corridor existed before anyone fires up a subspace drive.  The gravity well requirement isn't mentioned, and I would posit that it's not a factor.

As for why nodes might collapse on their own: According to the techroom, most subspace corridors are extremely unstable, the ones in use are just those nobody expects to collapse soon (an interesting definition of permanent).   Keep in mind this is just based on Terran and Vasudan research into the phenomenon, so if nodes act that randomly without introducing catastrophe into the equation, explaining node collapse due to supernova becomes even more of a leap.

On the topic of subspace, I tend to view subspace travel in terms of wormholes: Inter-system drives allow you to travel through natural wormholes, and the intra-system drives generate short lived and artificial wormholes, but only inside of a gravity well.  Whether the mechanics of a (theoretical) wormhole and subspace travel are in any way similar to each other doesn't really matter, it's just a way of looking at the concept.  But it would explain why you can't just fly through subspace to leave wherever you like, as it's very much a tunnel that requires a start and end point before hand (for in system jumps) or a tunnel that only goes one place anyways (inter-system jumps).
Everything is better with monkeys.  Even pie.

That is the best first post I have ever seen.

 
Possibly, but in that case I would suspect that they might have found some nodes that lead directly into deep space. Every single node they use apparently connects to a star system. That is a lot of jump nodes. So, it is my belief that, due to gravity or whatever else, jump nodes only form near stars.
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?" -DEATH, Discworld

"You can fight like a krogan, run like a leopard, but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard!"

 
The fact that every single node the GTVA uses leads to another star system doesn't exclude the possiblilty of nodes that lead you straight to the middle of nowhere, it just means the GTVA only uses nodes that are (relatively) stable and useful  I'd imagine the corps of explorers would have far more detailed maps then what we see in command briefings, since there's no point in displaying nodes considered too unstable for use or nodes we know don't go anywhere useful. 

Even if every node we've ever discovered and traveled through has led to another system, it still doesn't preclude the possibility that the nodes too unstable for travel lead somewhere else besides another star system.  If that was the case you would have Occam's Razor on your side of course, and I'd concede that it's a fairly reasonable and likely explanation.  But to my knowledge we haven't been given a canonical answer to this particular question.
Everything is better with monkeys.  Even pie.

That is the best first post I have ever seen.

 

Offline Snail

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You're right. The subspace tech description does say stuff about that. If nodes are appearing and disappearing in seconds, I'd say some of them have to lead to random places.

But
maybe jump nodes need a large gravitational mass like a planet or star, but even so I think some nodes would lead you to nowhere.

 
Quote from: FS 2 techroom
First, an intrasystem jump can occur between two points in a star system. Most small, space-faring vessels are equipped with motivators capable of these short jumps. The presence of an intense gravitational field is required, prohibiting travel beyond the boundaries of a star system.

The wiki page has some stuff to say about that, also.

 
Now back on topic.

What I think happened to Bosch?

Anal probe.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 12:51:53 am by AllStarZ »

 

Offline admiral_wolf

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I think he may have been instrumental in negotiating some sort of cease-fire.  As he says he bears no hatred to Vasudans, he may have proved the link between the GTVA and the Shivans.  We all unite under one front.  Vasudans get a new home, we find a way back home, Bosch marries his Shivan lover and I get magically resurected and made Admiral of the new GTVSJ Unite.
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Offline Snail

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I think he may have been instrumental in negotiating some sort of cease-fire.  As he says he bears no hatred to Vasudans, he may have proved the link between the GTVA and the Shivans.  We all unite under one front.  Vasudans get a new home, we find a way back home, Bosch marries his Shivan lover and I get magically resurected and made Admiral of the new GTVSJ Unite.

And then die again when the GTVSJ Unite turns out to be a kamikaze bomb.

 
Howdy, new to the Forums but thought I'd chime in.

The fact that Bosch actually made it off the Iceni and onto Shivan transports alive and intact tells me that he was able to communicate just enough with the Shivans to negotiate some kind of truce between them (though not necessarily with humanity as a whole). As such, I can only assume that the Shivans have an intelligence (whether hive mind or not) that can be reasoned with using crude communication. Using an old psychological cliche', "The Shivans may not be evil, merely misunderstood."

I've always postulated that the Shivans are merely the militant wing of a more civilized power and the collapse and subsequent supernova of the Capella star was a beacon of sorts. As many an astronomer knows, supernova are among the brightest phenomena in the known universe and what better way to say "mission accomplished" than to raise the victory flag in the middle of enemy territory.

I'm currently designing a campaign (who isn't?) regarding this interpretation from the viewpoint of the remnant of GTVA ships left in the Capella system after the supernova. Undoubtedly, a few ships survived and they band together to survive in Shivan-infested territory. Anyway, Bosch makes an appearance and gives a little explanation to the destruction of Capella while admitting his own ignorance of Shivan logic. Basically, the star's destruction is the sign of victory for outsiders looking in. Who the outsiders are is anyone's guess.

That's my 2 cents. Great forum you have here.

 
3, 2, 1... FIRE!

:welcomegreen:

The one thing I would like to clarify is: are you suggesting that some ships survived the supernova, or are you saying they jumped into Gamma Draconis at the last minute?
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Offline colecampbell666

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If the supernova was a victory flag, it would take dozens of years to reach the nearest stars.

Welcome!
Gettin' back to dodgin' lasers.

 
Maybe this race controlling the Shivans has an altered time perception, and 12 years is like one day or something... and they need the Shivans around to defend them against us, who "move" so much faster.[/silly theory]

...

I've been reading Between the Strokes of Night too much... :sigh:
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?" -DEATH, Discworld

"You can fight like a krogan, run like a leopard, but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard!"

 
Ok, to explain a little further...

The Capella system, while based around the star, might extend a light-year or (maybe more) from the star itself. Even with a supernova, there will be areas of space around the star that have not been affected by the explosion because of the distance (even at light speed, a gamma ray burst wouldn't touch a space station on the fringe of the system for a year). The plot revolves around a SOC installation that is on the fringe of the Capella system and top-secret until the supernova. The installation sent out a homing beacon to any ships that may have survived. Only one corvette, a few cruisers and a couple fighters (which of course, you as a pilot are one of them) survive the explosion so we're not talking an entire fleet here.

As for the beacon, I knew someone would say "Um, it would still take thousands of years for the light to reach such a civilization" and normally, you'd be right. However, as we all know, Shivans have been using Subspace far longer than humanity, Vasudans, or even the Ancients. My assumption is that the Shivans can peer through subspace (think space-folding) and see things far quicker than a typical light telescope.

As the campaign unfolds, it becomes readily apparent the Shivans are not twiddling their thumbs in Capella and, unfortunately for the GTVA, not bound to the system because of a couple collapsed jump nodes.

 
Wow, that is some expensive victory sign. Blow up a star and lose multiple Sathanas just so you can tell your people that you are kicking ass. It's like the US lining up 1/4 of its fleet and then simultaneously blowing them all up with the crew on them... Kinda extreme?

 
I still think that when the Shivans blew up Capella they made a mistake... doesn't make sense that they'd destroy so much of their own fleet...
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?" -DEATH, Discworld

"You can fight like a krogan, run like a leopard, but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard!"