[WMCoolmon]

A point that someone needs to make -

You've all been talking about the force and effects of the supernova on a given ship as if it's a constant. It's not. Even if the Shivans were to only jump light-hours away, the force of the explosion would be radically less than if they were right next to the sun. By that point, the surface area of the shockwave would be vastly greater, but the total amount of energy would remain unchanged, meaning a less-dense shockwave at the edge of the system.

Similarly, the gases would (AFAIK) be less dense at the outer part of the system.

If nothing else, the Shivans could jump to the edge of the system, then jump inside the shockwave, and would merely have to contend with the superheated remnants and the shockwave would miss them entirely (assuming there were no adverse effects on subspace).

So unless someone has evidence that conditions would be completely impossible to survive in at the outer edges of a system after a supernova (and remember, we're talking about ships that can easily survive a multitude of direct hits by antimatter-based weaponry), I think it's very possible that the Sathanas fleet could have jumped to the edge of the system and survived.

[Marcus Vesper]

So unless someone has evidence that conditions would be completely impossible to survive in at the outer edges of a system after a supernova (and remember, we're talking about ships that can easily survive a multitude of direct hits by antimatter-based weaponry), I think it's very possible that the Sathanas fleet could have jumped to the edge of the system and survived.

Then what was the purpose of the star's destruction if that's the case?  You didn't think the shimmering rifts between the arms of the Sathanas vessels looked awfully like they'd just ripped a hole in the fabric of the universe and then left through it?  You're saying that not only is Petrach wrong about the Shivans motives for what they did, he's also wrong about what they did?  You REALLY think they blew up a star system to harvest the resulting nebula when there's a perfectly good nebula on the route they took to get there in the first place (that they were already mining!)?!!

Seriously fellows, even if it is possible, that theory is just all kinds of lame.  And worse, it makes the actions of the Shivans look lame.  Since the Shivans are not in fact lame, your theory cannot possibly be correct.  Just because you also don't like this theory Trashman doesn't mean I'm letting your equally lame "Oopsie, there goes the neighborhood!" theory out of the well deserved drubbing I've been giving it in other related threads.

If your theory in any way humanizes the behavior or strategies of the Shivans, or diminishes their impact as a terrifyingly unstoppable force who's motivations we can't even comprehend, then your theory is wrong.  Screw logic, that's all narrative impact speaking.

The Shivans are Flying Dutchmen: ghost ships that patrol the uncharted waters, the monsters at the edge of the map. They are the terrible Unknown that occasionally, forcefully, intrudes on what we consider safe and secure. They do not do so for reasons we can understand. They are, in the classical sense, monsters. They are not part of any discernable ecology. They do not consume, produce, and are not consumed in a way that directly contributes to any life outside their own. They are an arbitrary and horrible imposition on a cosmos that otherwise makes perfect sense, and that's where those goosebumps come from.

We've seen a devolution of "scary stories" over the last century. Our modern ghosts just want to be understood, our modern monsters are simply part of an ecology we don't yet understand, and once we've tucked these ghouls and demons safely inside the folds of wisdom they are no longer a threat. Consider how many horror films center around problems of understanding: once the protagonist learns why the ghost is angry, learns the monsters secret weakness, or unravels the mysteries of a particular ritual, the problem is solved. Rationalism is proposed as a weapon that can slay any dragon. These movies may startle us with a sudden bump, or gross us out with buckets of gore, but they don't really scare.

You're doing that to the Shivans. 

[TrashMan]

So unless someone has evidence that conditions would be completely impossible to survive in at the outer edges of a system after a supernova (and remember, we're talking about ships that can easily survive a multitude of direct hits by antimatter-based weaponry), I think it's very possible that the Sathanas fleet could have jumped to the edge of the system and survived.

The Moloch and Deimos seemed far enough and they got atomized. Planets got atomized.
Do people even realise just how powerful a supernova is?

And another point - a warship can survive multiple hits in-game for mostly the same reason your fighter in a hack and slash can get cleaved in half by a greatsword and only loose 20 HP. Becosue it's a game and things musn't die too fast. A player has to have time to react and to enjoy the gory death of the enemy

hen what was the purpose of the star's destruction if that's the case?  You didn't think the shimmering rifts between the arms of the Sathanas vessels looked awfully like they'd just ripped a hole in the fabric of the universe and then left through it?  You're saying that not only is Petrach wrong about the Shivans motives for what they did, he's also wrong about what they did?  You REALLY think they blew up a star system to harvest the resulting nebula when there's a perfectly good nebula on the route they took to get there in the first place (that they were already mining!)?!!

Correct me if I'm wrong Marcus, but Petrarch was SPECULATING. He was using words like maby and perhaps..which means he didn't have a clue either.

[Marcus Vesper]

Speculating about where they might have gone and why wanted to, not speculation that they went somewhere other then a normal in system jump.  That they used the star to leave seemed pretty clear, to me and Petrach.  It's just the whys and wheres that fall into the realm of speculation.

And as you yourself pointed out, there's no reason for Petrach to be entirely honest even in an epilogue.  He may well know quite a bit more then he lets on, ever consider that?  If we're opening up the potential that the entire speech was carefully tuned propaganda, then, and this is key here, why on earth wouldn't he have explicitly mentioned it was a big mistake on the Shivan's part if Command actually thought that?!  I don't know about you, but the thought of a violent xenophobic race accidentally destroying a star and a lot of their fleet is a whole lot more comforting then the thought that they did it entirely on purpose.

[TrashMan]

To the officers and crew of the GTD Aquitaine. We have halted the shivan advance. The battle of Capella is over. We sealed off the system and our people are safe, maybe forever. No one can fathom how or why the Shivans destroyed the Capella star. Though we know our enemy better now than we did 32 years ago, their motives remain a mystery. Perhaps they are exiles like we are, nomads wandering the universe, searching for a way back home. The explosion of a star might be a bridge between this universe and their own. As the old poet once said "There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Really Marcus, pay attention.

How the hell could command know if it was a mistake or not if they have no clue what the shivans were trying to do in the first place? Unless they intercepted a shivan communication sayin "Oopsie!" or "Ow, crap!" I kinda doubt that.

Face it, we know jack s***. The GTVA knows jack s***.
The super-jump node theory isn't any more plausible than a giant shivan BBQ or mass suicide theory.

[karajorma]

If nothing else, the Shivans could jump to the edge of the system, then jump inside the shockwave, and would merely have to contend with the superheated remnants and the shockwave would miss them entirely (assuming there were no adverse effects on subspace).

Until some astrophysicist tells us we're both wrong I'm also going to have to agree with you there. People are acting like the nebula left behind by the destruction of Capella is going to be the same unrealistic pea souper beyond Gamma Draconis. Real nebulae aren't like that. By the time the shockwave has reached Pluto orbit the particle density further in the system is low enough that it would be called a vacuum.

So the only way the Shivan ships are going to heat up is by radiated heat. And I suspect that a ship that can survive antimatter weapons at point blank range can survive that for quite a while. As long as they avoid the shockwave they'll be fine.

[TrashMan]

People are acting like the nebula left behind by the destruction of Capella is going to be the same unrealistic pea souper beyond Gamma Draconis. Real nebulae aren't like that.

Apparently, nebulas in FS ARE pea soups, as silly as it sounds.
RL apprently couldn't apply for a job at [V].

[karajorma]

Just because the one beyond GD is doesn't mean the Capella one has to be.

How the hell could command know if it was a mistake or not if they have no clue what the shivans were trying to do in the first place?

Well given that you've claimed it must be an accident and they had more data than you if you believe what you've been saying this entire thread then Command must be even more certain it was an accident.

[TrashMan]

Just because the one beyond GD is doesn't mean the Capella one has to be.

No it doesn't. Yet it's the only CANON nebula we have to go on.

Well given that you've claimed it must be an accident and they had more data than you if you believe what you've been saying this entire thread then Command must be even more certain it was an accident.

Ahem..*might* be an accident.
Again, how could command know? Maby the shivies were trying to open a portal without blowing the sun, but they miscalculated. Maby they planed on blowing the sun but the nova fired off too early.
Either way, there's no way for command to be sure, even with lot's and lots of sensor data.

[karajorma]

No it doesn't. Yet it's the only CANON nebula we have to go on.

Which means **** all then. You can't draw a graph by extrapolating from one data point. The Demon was the only CANON Shivan Destroyer in FS1. I guess that means can't have made the Ravana in FS2 then.

Just because that nebula wasn't realistic doesn't mean other ones might not have been.

Ahem..*might* be an accident.

State another theory you consider credible then. You've rubbished every other one posted.

[TrashMan]

The Demon was the only CANON Shivan Destroyer in FS1. I guess that means can't have made the Ravana in FS2 then.

Eh?  You lost me here bud...

State another theory you consider credible then. You've rubbished every other one posted.

Rubbished? What are you talking about?

[karajorma]

You've basically said that every other theory other than Capella's supernova being an accident is highly implausible due to the fact that the Shivans let their fleet be destroyed.

And then you've turned around and said that there is no reason Command would know that it was an accident. Despite arguing against every other theory posted on this thread, Which logically means that there must be another theory not posted on this thread  which you consider Command would believe is fairly likely. I'd like to know what it is and why you think Command would think it likely enough that they wouldn't know Capella was an accident since you've spent the entire thread bashing every other idea as unlikely and even gone so far as to claim the supernode theory is as likely as jokes like the Shivan BBQ.

Cause if all the other theories are implausible then Command would know it was an accident. So what is this mystery theory?

[TrashMan]

You're typing but not making any sense.

I said that the shivan behaviour during the nova is very suspicious and offered a good explanation for it. It's a sound theory but not the only one that explains it.

WTF does this have to do with command knowing or not knowing? Why did you bring it in anyway?

And to conclude - WTF? You post seem to having less and lass sense lately..

[Agent_Koopa]

Let's calm down, people. Nobody wants to get banned.

First off, the Sathanaseses could not have escaped the supernova and remained in-system. There's simply no way. The mission is titled Apocalypse. The final mission of the game. The supernova is portrayed as a massive wave of destruction, frying ships and planets, wiping the system clean of life. It's pretty clear that the developers intended the supernova to devastate everything, representing the complete obliteration of an entire star system. For the juggernauts to have remained in Capella, surviving on a technicality, is quite unlikely.

Second, there is absolutely no reason to doubt Petrarch's hunch. It's the end of the game, and it's the only canon explanation provided for the inexplicable act of ignoring enemy forces and blowing up a star. As karajorma said, why would they lie to us then, after we completed the game? Petrarch as a character may be fallible, but as the one delivering the epilogue, there's simply no way.

However, perhaps Capella was an accident. That's certainly possible. Remember that juggernauts, the very same ships that engineered the subspace wave, were also destroyed in the blast. If the juggernauts were built with the express purpose of creating massive jump nodes, why would the Shivans allow some to be destroyed every time one was made? Surely they would have anticipated that? They have the technology to create nodes from stars, but each time part of the fleet gets obliterated? I think not. The motive, clearly, was not to hurt the GTVA, because the eighty juggernauts would have wiped the floor with the entire fleet without breaking a sweat. Thus, it cannot have been a sacrificial ploy to destroy the allied fleet. They were winning. What would possibly motivate them to blow up half their fleet in a supernova? Nothing, that's what!

Now. To say that the Shivans, masters of subspace and of bizarre technology, completely screwed up their uber-jump node on their own, allowing their jump-node constructor armada to be partially obliterated, is ridiculous. The Shivans know more about what they did than we do, how could they allow such a catastrophe to occur? Absurd! It's impossible for the Shivans to have messed up so badly, right?

There is one way.

Before the juggernaut fleet came bearing down on the GTVA, there was one event that could have put their plans into disarray. One component that was missing. One, and only one reason for the supernode to fail so spectacularly, causing the Capella incident. Yes, the one Sathanas-class Shivan juggernaut that was missing from the fleet, the single node constructor that was destroyed by the GTVA!  One single juggernaut arrived early, and fell victim to the guns of the Colossus! That was all it took for only partial success to be possible, for part of the fleet to escape and leave the rest to their fiery grave!

The Shivans must have known about the destruction of the first Sathanas. They lost contact with a huge, powerful ship, one of the most important in their fleet, the first one to arrive, the only one not present. How could they not miss it? If its absence was indeed the cause of the supernova, wouldn't the Shivans have known how important it was to have all ships present? It's their technology, after all. The Shivans must have been desperate! For some reason, returning home, and returning home now, was important enough to risk massive casualties! What could possibly have motivated the Shivans to attempt a supernode with insufficient ships? Could there be something...else...? All we ever got from Volition, the one explanation for the Shivans' bizarre actions, was that the Shivans were a symptom of a much greater problem...

[WMCoolmon]

Sources inside Volition* tell me that Capella was actually the Shivans' equivalent to Woodstock. The unusual subspace disturbances the GTVA picked up was actually the music; what we saw in the end cutscene with the bendy arms and all was the Shivans' equivalent to waving cell phones or lighters.

Then the bassist hit the wrong note and the sun exploded.

Unfortunately, half of the fleet was already so damn high that they thought it was all part of the concert, up until the flames engulfed them. At that point they barely had enough time to yell "PARTY FOUL!!!" before being being vaporized in a fiery, agonizing, and totally uncool inferno.

As for the rest of the Shivan fleet, they were just trying to provide security for the concert, but those blasted Terrand and Vasudan jackasses kept on trying to push their way to the floor without even buying a ticket to the concert. The GTVA also blockaded the restrooms shortly after the concert started, which pissed off at least one fan and caused numerous others intense discomfort.

In the end, almost nobody made it out because they were so busy defending the stage that they didn't notice that the stage had become a raging supernova.


* Not really.

[Koth]

 

[NGTM-1R]

Now. To say that the Shivans, masters of subspace and of bizarre technology, completely screwed up their uber-jump node on their own, allowing their jump-node constructor armada to be partially obliterated, is ridiculous. The Shivans know more about what they did than we do, how could they allow such a catastrophe to occur? Absurd! It's impossible for the Shivans to have messed up so badly, right?

Actually, considering the Shivans felt it necessary to send in a Sathanas in Their Finest Hour, it is quite possible you blew up something they needed. Parts, fuel, people who actually knew how to work the damn thing. Thus, some of the Sathanas went ahead with noobs at the controls, juryrigged gear, or less gas then they needed. Some of those made it, but some didn't. Or possibly the whole supernova was a result of the failures involved in this.

[karajorma]

I said that the shivan behaviour during the nova is very suspicious and offered a good explanation for it. It's a sound theory but not the only one that explains it.

So what's another sound explanation in your opinion then?

[TrashMan]

Now. To say that the Shivans, masters of subspace and of bizarre technology, completely screwed up their uber-jump node on their own, allowing their jump-node constructor armada to be partially obliterated, is ridiculous. The Shivans know more about what they did than we do, how could they allow such a catastrophe to occur? Absurd! It's impossible for the Shivans to have messed up so badly, right?

A very sound theory of yours, yet it's this part that irks me.
Absurd? Impossible? How do you figure that?
Hasn't humanity screwed up over and over again, even on great important projects. Just count the number of rockets lost during the space race.
Shivans are mysterious but are no more perfect than humans.
Luck, chance, some stupid factor or another..who knows what might have caused a error..but it's very possible.

So what's another sound explanation in your opinion then?

There are a few in this very thread. Didn't you read?

[karajorma]

I read. And then I read you say that they were unlikely.

I'm asking for one you consider likely other than it being an accident.