[TrashMan]

All you've proved with that sentence is that you don't understand what Occam's Razor is or how to use it. It can not be used like you just tried to use it. It only works when both theories explain the same data. These do not since they both rest on fundamental assumption neither of which have supporting data.

So I suggest you go and re-read what Occam's Razor is before you attempt to use it on me.

DATA:
Shivan use a massive subspace field on Capella sun.
Sun goes supernova
Shivans loose a lot of ships in the process, including at least several Saths who were doing something to the sun.

Thrown conclusions:
1a. Shivans did something wrong, sun went nova before they planned
1b. Shivans did everything as planned (why so many lost ships then when there was no need?)

2a. Shivans opened a new supernode that somehow remained undetected that flung them somewhere far away (how would they select the destination? If a new node formes it will connect to some other system/sun in some strange relations with distance and gravity. Furthemore, why risk loosing so many other ships needlesly?)
2b. Shivans were powering a weapon that detonated prematurely

I rest my case.

And I notice that you didn't address my main point. How do you know how long it takes to detect a node. It could take months of work. The fact that at the start of the war the systems beyond Laramis were unexplored suggests that too.

It doesn't suggest anything. And a supernode should be far easier to find than a normal one.

[Gamma_Draconis]

Maybe the Shivans withdrew from the system to do something more important than destroying the GTVA. Something that was so urgent that the lost of several Sathanas class ships was acceptable. Perhaps the Shivan homeworld was underattacked and the only way they could reach it was to create a massive subspace node by collapsing the Capella star. I would assume that the Shivans knew that several of the Sathanas would be sacrificed in order to create enough energy to start the super nova. It was a lost that the Shivans had anticipated.

[karajorma]

Sacrificing 30 or 40 Sathanas Juggernauts means **** all if the Shivans have 10,000 of them.

[TrashMan]

Sacrificing 30 or 40 Sathanas Juggernauts means **** all if the Shivans have 10,000 of them.

Why sacrifice ANY ship if you don't have to?

[karajorma]

Who says they didn't have to?

[FUBAR-BDHR]

Why does it have to be a supernode?  Maybe the destruction of the star leaves behind a hole in subspace that is the standard jump nodes we know. 

Also could the GTVA detect a node?  Maybe.  Even if they could have they ever seen what the formation of a node looks like?  With no reference point to go by the best thing they could do is guess.

Just reading about supernova.  Looks like it only takes a matter of weeks or months for the gas left in the system to dissipate.  What isn't pushed out of the system is gathered back up by the gravity of the core of the collapsing star.  Also the type of supernova is dependent on the type of star going nova.  Other then there was a shockwave and a second wave of matter emitted from the star.  After that we don't know what was left IN the system.  Again since this was a Shivan made event and not natural it make it even more open to speculation on what could or could not be left.

So the thing is we just don't know what would be there.  After a few years would there be enough scientific curiosity to try and find out?  Again assuming we figure out how to control the Knossos they just might.

[karajorma]

Just reading about supernova.  Looks like it only takes a matter of weeks or months for the gas left in the system to dissipate.  What isn't pushed out of the system is gathered back up by the gravity of the core of the collapsing star.

I suspected that might be the case but I couldn't find anything that said anything in either direction. Got a link?

[eliex]

 No sorry, but the whole case really depends on what exactly shivans are as a species.

Their history . . . which puts into their motives
Their behaviour ( well apart from killing anything that they don't like  )

 And what does it mean they are native to subspace?
If people could live in subspace, why couldn't the GTVA?

  Is it possible to set up an Arcadia installation inside it? Or will it be swept away in case a jump node collapses? 

[TrashMan]

Who says they didn't have to?

They lost cruisers, corvettes, even destroyers to the supernova.
It's possible some of the Saths had to stay behind for some reason or another (ran out of juice, overloaded reactors or something), but if the shivies knew and planned to blow up the sun, they could have evacuated OTHER ships..which they didn't.
So the question WHY has to be asked..

[eliex]

It's possible some of the Saths had to stay behind for some reason or another (ran out of juice, overloaded reactors or something), but if the shivies knew and planned to blow up the sun, they could have evacuated OTHER ships..which they didn't.

Actually, they did. < very minimal though >
The two Shivan cruisers at the last mission were trying to make a run for the node to *safety*, if you call it that because all the other GTVA forces are all on the other side.

 And I think that the cutscene showed maybe 12 or 13 Sathanai getting blown up just to console the player . . . make them feel good 

[FUBAR-BDHR]

These don't show how fast it cool but it does show how fast the light dies down.  They also tell about the various types for supernovas.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/astro/snovcn.html
http://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/supernova_worldbook.html

If the light and radiation dissipate that fast then shouldn't the heat also?


One other possibility on the Shivan ships that were destroyed.  Who says all the Stahs were manned?  They could have know they were going to loose there ships and put them on autopilot or only left behind a skeleton crew. 

[Kie99]

The Capella nova was not like any other Supernova NASA could know about.

[Snail]

Unless NASA know anything about n-dimensional disturbances prematurely causing supernovae.

[karajorma]

The Capella nova was not like any other Supernova NASA could know about.

That merely means that Trashman's assumptions about the speed they cool down are even more likely to be wrong then, doesn't it?

[AlphaOne]

Well ppl keep talking about the shivans wasting theyr ships as if the shivans actualy cared about theyr ships and pilots.

HELLO we are talking about THE SHIVANS . Loosing cap ships doesnt seem to bother them all that much.

Also i believe that the GTVA did in fact detect the subspace field created which COULD of been a massive subspace node the only problems i see here are this:

a) Did the GTVA actualy realize that a supernode was forming  ?
b) do the energy patterns of a supernode resemble anything withing the GTVA database?
c)Who sais that GTVA command did not just bullsh** the player about what the shivans were actualy dooing and classified everithing level omega or something ?

Answers:

a) I believe that in the begining the GTVA had no idea what the shivans were dooing but they realized it later on or at least suspected as much.
b)Since GTVA command lets it big mouth say the most stupid things i do remember them stating that the energy patterns were unlike anything they have seen or something like that. This leads me to conclude that a supernode is very diferent in terms of energy patterns structure etc form a normal node.

c) I believe that GTVA command once it realized what the shivans were atempting (to create a supernode) clasified this data lvl omega so as not to alar the general population back home. Because such an event would trigger mass panic since it would mean the shivans could go anywhere they like whenever they like or at least that is the theory. I also believe that GTVA command had at least suspected that the Capella star would go nova but they lioed to everyone so as not to cause panic withing the fleeing transport etc. But this im not so sure about.

That beeing said i also have to knock off one of my previous statements about the shivans beeing able to go anywhere anytime. They could of used any sistem they wanted from beyond the portal and from within the GTVA space but they targeted capella for a reason.

I believe that this was their way of actualy directing the supernode to where they actuali wanted to go. This means that shivans while in theory are able to travel anywhere anytime they are restricted by the use of massive resources and also massive losses to their own fleet numbers . And by the fact that some destinations they simpli can not reach via direct supernode. Why?

Because they simpli can not expect to find a star that is suited for they destination of travel. Also this is not something that the shivans would actualy use all the time beacause of the massive damage to subspace itself and the destruction of entire solarsistems. They may be genocidal alliens but they do actualy care about solar sistems as a whole.

I believe this was some sort of a desperate act on the part of the shivans to reach somewhere fast in a hurry.

Also whyle the shivans had all the cards they did not know this. So i believe this is one of the reasons they kept theyr forces in the Capella sistem all this time to distract a possible counterattack by the GTVA via Collie fleet.

[karajorma]

Another thing Trashman is forgetting. Even if the GTVA did detect a massive subspace node why the hell would they tell the player given how secretive they are?

[AlphaOne]

umm thats what i said above did i not?

[karajorma]

Pretty much.

[TrashMan]

Actually, they did. < very minimal though >
The two Shivan cruisers at the last mission were trying to make a run for the node to *safety*, if you call it that because all the other GTVA forces are all on the other side.

 And I think that the cutscene showed maybe 12 or 13 Sathanai getting blown up just to console the player . . . make them feel good 

IIRC, those cruisers have been attacking the convoy and they weren't evacuating, they were making a run deeper into GTVA space. What about all the other ships?
We see other shivan ship fighting all over the system. Why didn't they just pack their bags?

[TrashMan]

The Capella nova was not like any other Supernova NASA could know about.

That merely means that Trashman's assumptions about the speed they cool down are even more likely to be wrong then, doesn't it?

Bollocks. It doesn't matter how you blow up 10 tons of explosives, it will always make the same bang, wether you use a timed detonator, throw a granade on it or shoot at it with a pistol.
The Shivans induced the supernova but the explosion is an explosion. Fusion is fusion, fission is fission.