Author Topic: Other races in Freespace  (Read 27296 times)

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Offline Vidmaster

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Re: Other races in Freespace
you know it? yeah, I was talking exactly about that kind of beings.
Damn good books! Did not refer to them since I didn't imagine somebody would knew those  ;)

EXPLANATION TO THOSE HOW DID NOT READ THE BOOKS:
Spoiler:
A race of nano-machines, killing sentient life where they find it to prevent it from spreading. They try to keep the number of races in our galaxy small, since the Milky Way is on a collision course with Andromeda and when they will start to hit each other in a few billion years, they will only able to save "life" when there is not to much of it.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 04:21:21 am by Vidmaster »
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Other races in Freespace
Well you'd think if they'd been around for thousands of years, like i mentioned, their empire would be big enough to span a considerable amount of systems.
We've been around for 2 million years and we're yet to leave our home system ...LOL.

However, here's something to nibble on - the Vasudans and Terrans are subspace capable for almost (if not over) a century. And they only have how many systems? There are MILLIONS of systems within our galaxy. At this rate (even assuming a proportional increase) of exploration and colonization, both races wouldnt' even cover half the Milky Way in several thousands of years..
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Other races in Freespace

Quote from: Ancient Monologue 1
Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years our empire expanded. For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long never did we encounter advanced life. And we travelled faster and further spreading in our galaxy [Fig. 1] and before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited [Fig. 2]. And then there would be nowhere else to go.

Figure 1 gives me the impression that the Ancients spread throughout their galaxy. Everywhere. Figure 2 even says that they could see the point when they had reached all the exploitable systems of the galaxy.

MEh...poetic exageration. If we were to leave Sol we could also say that we traveled faster and further spreadig trough our galaxy...even if we only just begun and our tech limits us to only the few systems in our vicinity.
Then again, without FTL drive further expansion will soon prove impractical, especially when considering systems that are further away.
Thus as you can see, this also fits those words just nicely.


Quote
Quote from: Ancient Monologue 1
And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy [Fig. 3] and it gave us the universe [Fig 4.]. And we saw other advanced life. And we subdued it or we crushed it. In months the extermination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path. With subspace our empire would surely know no boundaries.

Figure 3 says "gave us our galaxy." Their galaxy. Gaaaaaalaxxxeeeeeeee. Is that not clear enough? Gaaaaalaaaaaxeeeeeeeeeeee.

Figure 4 says "the universe." Just before that, they say "galaxy". That just screams at  me, that the "universe" is more than one galaxy. And subspace "gave us the universe." So they have the universe, which is more than one galaxy.

Wrong on both accounts. Subspace drives givce you the POTENTIAL to travel across the galaxy, MABY even further, so it's completely acceptable wording to say that even if you don't have more than 10 systems in your galaxy. After all, you just got your new drive....you're in awe and happy..the possibilities seem endless....or are they?


Oh...from the Wiki:
Quote
The Ancient homeworld is described as being "near to Vasuda".
Looks to me like they are from our galaxy...

And IIRC, there is no canon indication of inter-galaxy nodes. It maby be possible to jump to another galaxy, as Kaj said the superdense galaxy centers...but wouldn't that also require a order of magnitude more power than subspace drive have?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 08:29:28 am by TrashMan »
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Offline Snail

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Re: Other races in Freespace
Wrong on both accounts. Subspace drives givce you the POTENTIAL to travel across the galaxy, MABY even further, so it's completely acceptable wording to say that even if you don't have more than 10 systems in your galaxy. After all, you just got your new drive....you're in awe and happy..the possibilities seem endless....or are they?

They said that they had spread within their own galaxy, and then began spreading throughout the universe. ("It gave us our galaxy and it gave us the universe.") Is this not clear?

MEh...poetic exageration. If we were to leave Sol we could also say that we traveled faster and further spreadig trough our galaxy...even if we only just begun and our tech limits us to only the few systems in our vicinity.
Then again, without FTL drive further expansion will soon prove impractical, especially when considering systems that are further away.
Thus as you can see, this also fits those words just nicely.

You can't just dismiss everything as poetic exaggeration. :rolleyes:

Looks to me like they are from our galaxy...

Yeah I agree with you. "Near Vasuda" is definitely in our own galaxy.

And IIRC, there is no canon indication of inter-galaxy nodes. It maby be possible to jump to another galaxy, as Kaj said the superdense galaxy centers...but wouldn't that also require a order of magnitude more power than subspace drive have?

Ever heard of a Knossos?

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Other races in Freespace
LOL... well, according to you the USA rules this galaxy and has colonies on many stars.. Since you recall what they said about the Apollo program - that it "gave us the stars" . F'course, we have to take that literary, right? :rolleyes:

B.t.w. - Knososs stablises existing nodes between system, it doesn't create inter-galaxy nodes. :lol:
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Other races in Freespace
However, here's something to nibble on - the Vasudans and Terrans are subspace capable for almost (if not over) a century.

Support that statement or it's bollocks. Canon gives us 46 years + however much time it took to meet each other. For all we know that could have happened on the same year they discovered subspace.

While I'm at it...

1. The ancients may have never came across any significant resistance.
2. The Terrans and Vasudans fought each other to a standstill.
3. Both races suffered the crippling loss of their homeworld after 14 years of war.
4. Despite that they still managed to colonise at least half a dozen new worlds in the 32 years between FS1 and 2. How many could the Ancients have colonised?

Oh...from the Wiki:
Quote
The Ancient homeworld is described as being "near to Vasuda".
Looks to me like they are from our galaxy...

The wiki isn't a canon source. Again support that statement with a canon source or it's bollocks. Cause I reckon whoever wrote it is simply making the assumption that Altair must be near the Ancient homeworld. But that's not necessarily true. They might have fled halfway across their empire before they found somewhere safe.

Quote
And IIRC, there is no canon indication of inter-galaxy nodes. It maby be possible to jump to another galaxy, as Kaj said the superdense galaxy centers...but wouldn't that also require a order of magnitude more power than subspace drive have?

Using the black hole at the centre of the galaxy for a intergalactic jump was a conjecture. nothing more. I posted it cause I'm sure someone could make that idea into an interesting campaign.

Your idea about needing a gravitational source proportional to the distance is complete and utter bollocks. There is no canon proof to support it. You do not work for :v:. You don't have access to their designs for the FS universe so kindly stop acting as if you know more than everyone else when you assert that your view of how the FS universe works is correct.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Other races in Freespace
IT may not be correct, but is certnaly "correcter" than yours :p
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Other races in Freespace
Bollocks.

You can't even get simple facts in THIS universe correct.

Given the distance between Galaxies and the fact that nodes form between systems as a result of their gravity....any start in the same galaxy is 1000 times clsoer

Look up the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy and the size of the Milky Way for a start.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 01:00:59 pm by karajorma »
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Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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Re: Other races in Freespace
OK the Ancients came from "near Vasuda".  Where does it say that Vasuda Prime = Vasuda?  Maybe the Vasudans where brought to Vasuda Prime for slave labor by the Ancients. 

Seems to be a campaign idea there.  Reunite the Vasudans with their people if they still exist.

I still think the Ancients conquered most of their galaxy.  Maybe not all but at least what they thought worthwhile. 

Another interesting thing I just noticed is the same jump node leading to more than one system.  I may have just have not noticed it before but when I saw it it just stood out. 
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Re: Other races in Freespace
FUBAR, that is brilliant. Absolutely terrific idea!  :yes:

 

Offline Retsof

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Re: Other races in Freespace
Hey, what about my idea... or is it just way too much work? :lol:
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I can't help but hear a shotgun cocking with this.

  
Re: Other races in Freespace
Just to muddy the murky waters a little more:

What if the Ancients were TERRAN projenitors? What if OUR species, being a bit more remotely located in the galaxy was overlooked by the Shivans in their origional campaign against the Ancients? Perhaps a small outpost that ended up going primitive before returning to the Galactic scene during Freespace? No sources really say anything either way...

Most folks seem to assume that the Vasudans are in some way related to the Ancients (slave race, long lost children, etc...). All we have are some very vague statements that the Vasudans may have had contact at some point with them, not much else. There is little beyond this. The HOL are, like most terrorist impotentlings, just a bunch of religeous fanatics attempting to force their beliefs on others. Their ravings seem to refer to the Shivans, however it could just as easily be another destruction legend that has been interpreted to mean the Shivans. They do not seem to refer to the Ancients much if at all, although if someone would like to present direct canon sources I'd certainly entertain the possibility.

A lot of folks are just taking the purposely vague bits of canon and running with them, placing them into their own pet 'THE WAY THE UNIVERSE IS' theory. As has been pointed out, the only canon sources on the Ancients clearly state they spread throughout their own galaxy, that they were a race of conquerors, etc... Yet without ANY canon to the contrary, it is dismissed as being mere exageration and that the sourceless theories MUST be true? Isn't this a little presumptuous to be doing when mucking about in someone else's story uninverse?
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Other races in Freespace
As has been pointed out, the only canon sources on the Ancients clearly state they spread throughout their own galaxy, that they were a race of conquerors, etc... Yet without ANY canon to the contrary, it is dismissed as being mere exageration and that the sourceless theories MUST be true? Isn't this a little presumptuous to be doing when mucking about in someone else's story uninverse?

No, it's not.
As I said before, "spreading trough the galaxy" doesn't have to mean they really spread trough the whole galaxy..just that they begun to spread and are no longer contained to their home system.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 
Re: Other races in Freespace
there we go.
Fun while it lasted.

Then bitter.

 
Re: Other races in Freespace
The Freespace Universe is a big place full of ambiguities and often conflicting information. In its current dormant state, there is no official source for updates or corrections easily accessed by its fans. In one's own fanfiction, one can write any changes one wants. Is it canon? Not unless the official creators actually return and validate the material.

Until such time as the devs decide to revive the franchise however, the information that has been officially released is the last official word given, and without them around to approve or disprove changes, it pretty much should be taken at face value, even if it offends our sensibilities on the 'Way things ought to be'. Without an official interpretation of the issues, anything else is supposition.

When writing, a lot of folks don't believe in letting canon get in the way of their vision, and that is their right. I personally don't get bothered or upset by this, although I much prefer fan made works that keep within the boundaries of the canon. It is more enjoyable in the greater context of the gameverse for myself if the player made acontent can stay as near as possible within the canon for consistency rather than creating the need to rationalize out any newly introduced plot issues.

My personal feeling is that the Ancients were very widespread and extremely advanced, just not able to combat the Shivans effectively. Their megalithic subspace portal technology alone shows they were quite advanced in both construction and technology, also that they had the resources to apparently commonly construct these devices - three were encountered in the main campaign. Not only that, the devices themselves were quite sylized and decorative, not merely built for function. They obviously weren't shy about the investment in resources to build them as desired. This is plenty of evidence to indicate that the Ancients were likely very widespread indeed. To what extent? That part remains somewhat undeterminable.
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And a quiet sleep and a sweet dream when the long trick's over.
- JOHN MASEFIELD

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Other races in Freespace
The Chinese must leave Tibet. They have no right to have conquered other planets. - That's a stupid sentence.

Quote
When we conquered and colonized in galaxies where we had no place, the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom.

If the Ancients didn't conquer in other galaxies that is similarly stupid. While you can argue that other phrases are poetic this one is not. It doesn't say that the Ancients have no rights to conquer other galaxies (which could be a poetic blanket statement) it says that the Ancients had no rights to the other galaxies they did conquer. Which is as stupid as the one I posted above if they never left their own galaxy.

Now I'm not going to say that this means you can't say that the Ancients wouldn't make stupid comments for a whole bunch of cultural reasons but it certainly shifts the balance of probabilities for me. We have several canon references to the Ancients conquering in galaxies other than their own. Any explanation based on them exaggerating the size of their empire seems less likely than that they simply did colonise planets in other galaxies.

For those who want to keep the Ancient empire small I've already explained that you don't have to say they conquered the whole galaxy. Simply that they had outposts in other ones. 

What if the Ancients were TERRAN projenitors? What if OUR species, being a bit more remotely located in the galaxy was overlooked by the Shivans in their origional campaign against the Ancients? Perhaps a small outpost that ended up going primitive before returning to the Galactic scene during Freespace? No sources really say anything either way...

I've always hated stories that say that humans came from another planet originally. There's too much proof that humans are from Earth. For a start you have to wonder why the alien race would spend so much time burying Neanderthal bones everywhere. :) 
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 03:50:32 am by karajorma »
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Offline Vidmaster

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Re: Other races in Freespace
Another important fact: it's a game

V was never perfect in creating flawless universes (you all know the logical errors in FS1).
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Re: Other races in Freespace
Quote
I've always hated stories that say that humans came from another planet originally. There's too much proof that humans are from Earth. For a start you have to wonder why the alien race would spend so much time burying Neanderthal bones everywhere.

I don't disagree, however the statement merely emphasised the point I was making: we have no information from the canon sources to firmly state who or really exactly where the Ancients came from.  :v:  left it very ambiguous. This is not bad from their perspective, as if you wish to make a sequel you really want to keep as much leeway as possible storywise, but it does have some irritation for anyone trying to pin things down in neat little categories.

There have been a number of good science fiction stories that made at least some sense with premises that modern humans were descended from aliens - David Weber's Mutineer's Moon comes to mind (a group of renegade humans bred with neanderthals and so forth to introduce the more dominant imperial human strain), however I do not find such likely, merely entertaining. If what is accepted as reality gets in the way of a story, well, sucks to be reality  ;)

 :v:  certainly didn't concern themselves with adhering to only the known or accepted facts. They went ahead instead and altered the realities of their universe to fit the needs of their creation instead of the other way around.
All I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by.
And a laughing yarn from a merry fellow rover.
And a quiet sleep and a sweet dream when the long trick's over.
- JOHN MASEFIELD

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Other races in Freespace
LOL... well, according to you the USA rules this galaxy and has colonies on many stars.. Since you recall what they said about the Apollo program - that it "gave us the stars" . F'course, we have to take that literary, right? :rolleyes:

Are you too stupid to see that I have to write it in nice big writing?

Universe > 1 Galaxy

:rolleyes:

B.t.w. - Knososs stablises existing nodes between system, it doesn't create inter-galaxy nodes. :lol:

ORLY?

Nebula - no stars means it's hard if not impossible to tell where you are. In addition, the binary system may not have actually been in the same galaxy, it is never named.

BTW, I am not stupid.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Other races in Freespace
Let's calm down on the name calling people.

Another important fact: it's a game

I'm going to temp ban the next person who says "It's a game" in response to one of these threads without actually saying anything pertinent. We all know it's a game. If you're uninterested in the subject  don't say anything.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 07:55:27 am by karajorma »
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