[Mobius]

Apply the same principle to humanity. Are there more people in Europe than in America? Would the annihilation of Europe devastate America(without considering economy's jokes)

Losing the homeworld is terrible, mostly under a psychological point of view. I don't think the losses in terms. In Italy...Milano and Roma. In Australia...Melbourne and Sydney. I could write a very long list.

The're a center, ok, but there's most likely to be a "valid" replacement. In space, the "replacement" would be a larger planet with similar, if not superior, climatic conditions. Try to imagine a planet 1.5+ as big as Earth. In a matter of years it would become an important center.

[TrashMan]

You're not getting it. The shivans would probably bombard every inhabited planet of the ancient empire - that is any planet with cities, any planet that belongs to the empire at the time of shivan arrival.

However, refuges settling on some backwater planet would very likely go unnoticed - no traffic, no cities, no modern equipment, no easily detectable emissions for the shivies to follow.

[Snail]

You're not getting it. The shivans would probably bombard every inhabited planet of the ancient empire - that is any planet with cities, any planet that belongs to the empire at the time of shivan arrival.

Okay, I give up, there still could be a few Ancients around.

However, the Shivans wouldn't have bombarded every planet in the Ancient empire. Only one planet (possibly two) were actually bombarded by the Lucifer in its conquest of T/V space.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

What's to say the Ancients actually inhabited worlds they conquered?  They may have just ruled their empire from ships.  The only time they may have gone planet side could have been to resupply.  Basically if the slaves native to the planet didn't provide enough food and raw materials as offerings they would get blasted out of existence.  What was found at the excavation site may have been from a crashed ship.

[karajorma]

However, the Shivans wouldn't have bombarded every planet in the Ancient empire. Only one planet (possibly two) were actually bombarded by the Lucifer in its conquest of T/V space.

Only because the Lucifer was stopped. Earth was next and there is no reason to think that they wouldn't have gone after the other colonies after taking out both homeworlds.

[S-99]

The Ancients conquered every race they came across.

Who's to say they didn't force them into military service?  How would the Shivans be able to differentiate between the races victimized and the Ancients themselves?

The ancients say they never encountered any species as advanced as they were. They found many primitive species and ones on a similar development cycle as the ancients. If they to draft their incorporated species, they would all be flying ancient vessels. And the shivans wouldn't need to differentiate.

[Hellbender]

The Ancients need not even have abandoned all of their tech nor walled themselves off permanently from the rest of the universe. They have the Knossos technology after all. Perhaps they could keep an unstable node in reserve, or even create one as wanted to send out scouts for checking on the Shivans and foraging for extra materials, shutting it down if they feel threatened.

They could easily be building a fleet and technology base to take on the Shivan armada on overwhelming terms. Doing so in secret could easily explain such a long absence from the galactic scene. Perhaps they have already returned from hiding and gave the Shivans enough of a drubbing that they were using Capella to create a means of escape.

This could also offer an explaination for the large number of lesser Shivan warships battling the GTVA's evacuation forces; these warships could have been a rear guard meant to hold off the returning Ancients in case they managed to catch up to the Sathanas fleet before they completed their job on the Capella star. It's possible the creepy little quinsects were running away from something they feared, such as a revenge bent Ancient battle fleet.

Just a few theoretical thoughts...

[Admiral_Stones]

I like this idea.

Damn, I really love it!

Having them run is a totally new thought to me.
Strangely, I'm really joyed with this idea... probably I'm obsessed with FS2 and my guy I've named Jerome in all my love...
Another question though, I guess the Ancients would pwn the sheet out of us. Maybe ancient ships were even sighted, but we know the 'superhyperomega'-classified drill.

[Flipside]

I think [v] were a little cautious with regards to making their plotline too close to Babylon 5, they were already skirting dangerously into B5 territory, the similarities have been pretty obvious from the start, I think, personally, that they wanted to erase the Ancients from the modern timeline entirely. The idea of 'Ancients' coming back to continue an millennia-old war against an enemy dedicated to apparent total destruction was probably pushing their luck a little too far.

I'm not saying the Ancients could not have survived, I'm just saying that I don't think [v] intended them to ever play an active role in the Freespace series.

[karajorma]

I agree with you there Flip, but just cause they wouldn't doesn't mean we can't

Sometimes being unofficial has advantages.

[Flipside]

agreed, though I still think people have to be careful of falling into the same trap, but it's just a game at the end of the day, and as long as it's well executed, it doesn't really matter.

I think to do that, you'd have to add a really devious twist in there somewhere though, and not the usual 'The Ancients made the Shivans as a warrior sect! (always odd considering how far they'd got without any special need for engineered warriors)' or 'The Ancients are the Shivans, Freespace brings out the 'evil' in you if you spend too much time in it! (and apparently gains you capship shielding abilities)'.

Neither of them are bad ideas, but somewhat cliché, and have slight problems as mentioned in the brackets. It would be cool to bring back the Ancients, but what I'd really love to see is it done in an original and interesting way

[Hellbender]

agreed, though I still think people have to be careful of falling into the same trap, but it's just a game at the end of the day, and as long as it's well executed, it doesn't really matter.

That's the thing, games have a distinct advantage over fiction medium like books and movies: they are much more interactive, allowing a player potentially to have a real effect on the outcome and path of a story.

I think to do that, you'd have to add a really devious twist in there somewhere though, and not the usual 'The Ancients made the Shivans as a warrior sect! (always odd considering how far they'd got without any special need for engineered warriors)' or 'The Ancients are the Shivans, Freespace brings out the 'evil' in you if you spend too much time in it! (and apparently gains you capship shielding abilities)'.

Devious twists are good. I never ascribed to either of the above theories though. My thoughts put the Shivans closer to something like the Berserkers, and the Ancients were unlucky enough to run into them during their conqistador exploration days.

Neither of them are bad ideas, but somewhat cliché, and have slight problems as mentioned in the brackets. It would be cool to bring back the Ancients, but what I'd really love to see is it done in an original and interesting way

As I've said, I don't really buy either theory, but since I have my own anyway... lol.

The Ancients could easily be used as a catalyst for new story lines, but so too could a newly imagined race from beyond explored space, perhaps wakened by the destruction of Capella, or the flight of the rogue GTI from the Great War era. There are lots of possibilities that could be written to make a sensible continuation of events without disregarding the existing canaon.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Check INFR1; it seems that the people working on it wanted to add the Ancients in and make it such that they would ally with the GTVA.

[Dark Hunter]

I feel compelled to point out that is no longer Inferno's plan. I believe the Ancients were cut almost entirely from the main campaign.

[Koth]

Well, I think Woomeister had planned an additonal campaign called 'Gateways' which would be about the ancients. 

[Prophet]

Since everyone so desperately wants to hear my opinion....

Ancients are the WWII of science-fiction. I mean enough allready. Ancient allpowerful race who got 0wned by an evil allpowerful race. And at humanity's darkest hour the ancient all powerful race comes back to help us against the evil all powerful race. Or a variation of it. If you're dead then you're dead. One chance and if you can't cut it, then humanity doesn't need you. So what if they have starga... I mean planet kill... I mean are gods... Damn! I mean have Knossos portals.


If you want another race, I'd prefer something new and fresh. Another younger race. Then it would make sense that they are our equals. How much sense does it make to have naked little guys with uber tech whining for our help at every turn? Ancient enhanced collective of hundreds of races who still keep getting their butts kicked by us?

Something new please! Something else than lizards/bugs with organic tech, or guys with wrinkly noses. How about aquatic species? Silllicoids? Energy beings? Gas giant dwellers? Stop eating burgers, it destroys your imagination!!!

[AlphaOne]

thats pretty funny! Noobne said the Ancients became all powerfull gods etc etc. We  or at least I personaly believe that they are not extinct as everyone believes.

[TrashMan]

Sci-Fi does suffer from some poorly executed, "seen a million times before" things and often a terrible lack of logic 

[Hellbender]

Sci-Fi does suffer from some poorly executed, "seen a million times before" things and often a terrible lack of logic 

No kidding Trash.

Still, I don't think that just because something is familiar that it must follow that it cannot be fresh and exciting at the same time. There almost has to be a limit to the plausable ways to make first contact and so forth with another species especially when it is dependent on a medium like a game. I think it matters more in how it's presented than the actual subject itself to a degree.

I never did see the need for any alien species to make their spacecraft look like bugs or crustaceans or fish or any of a number of ridiculous styles. From the point of logic, it is something that would only cause numerous operational problems. Yes, maybe blocky military style is boring by comparison, but it sure stands up better to logic and realism, not to mention it has a cool factor all its own.

[TrashMan]

Still, I don't think that just because something is familiar that it must follow that it cannot be fresh and exciting at the same time. There almost has to be a limit to the plausable ways to make first contact and so forth with another species especially when it is dependent on a medium like a game. I think it matters more in how it's presented than the actual subject itself to a degree.

I never did see the need for any alien species to make their spacecraft look like bugs or crustaceans or fish or any of a number of ridiculous styles. From the point of logic, it is something that would only cause numerous operational problems. Yes, maybe blocky military style is boring by comparison, but it sure stands up better to logic and realism, not to mention it has a cool factor all its own.

QFT!