[TrashMan]

He was still in the GTVA back then, remember?

GOVERNMENT FUNDING

[FreeSpaceFreak]

He was still in the GTVA back then, remember?

GOVERNMENT FUNDING

Oh come on, the GTVA can't be that stupid, can they?

...

Can they?

[Jeff Vader]

They had absolutely no idea that the Saths could cause a supernova by creating subspace distortions around the Capella star. So why would they think that Bosch might be constructing a command frigate for leading a rebellion?

[karajorma]

If he was in charge of the construction during peace time he could get the money simply with underhanded appropriation tricks. If it was started during wartime, well with the resources of 3 star systems under his direct control it shouldn't be hard to figure out.

They had absolutely no idea that the Saths could cause a supernova by creating subspace distortions around the Capella star.

That does raise an interesting point. What if they did know? What if that is why Command was so desperate to destroy the Sathanas that they ordered the Colossus to overload its beams even after the Sathanas' main beam cannons are destroyed. Between the live Shivan subjects and the Ancient records they could know that the Shivans have 6km long ships that can destroy stars but not know they need 80 of them to do it.

In which case even sticking the Phonecia between the Sathanas and the Capella jump node seems less like stupidity and more like desperation. 

[Snail]

I know I'm probably boring you with this, but the Iceni neatly fills the gap. That's the reason why I think that the Iceni was the one and only prototype of the future GTVA battlefrigate. It has no fighterbays (the Hecate has), and it can wipe out any Shivan vessel the GTVA knew about during the Interbellum. It's even a serious threat to a Sathanas, especially if deployed in groups. (I think a production Iceni would cost about half the price of an Orion).

So it was a GTVA battlefrigate? NOT BUYING IT.

[karajorma]

As far as I'm concerned either the Iceni was purpose built as a one-off command ship for Bosch (In which case it's too expensive to build lots of them) or it has heavy use of next-gen technology (in which case we might as well talk about destroyers and juggernauts based on the same tech).

But I don't buy that the solution is to just build lots of Iceni class ships and leave the rest of the fleet as is.

[AlphaOne]

I totaly agree with u on this one Kara. I mean just building loads of battlefrigates such as the Iceni would not be too practical as it is clear that aside from the Hattie and the Orion which while old and a ship which in FS2 kinda shows its age (aaaf blindsports) there are no notable ships to speak of . Ups Sorry I forgot to throw in the Deimso and the Sobek. But the Hattie while powerfull adn with bigger HP isnt meant to deal a one or 2 hit salvo and take out a ship since well it is designed for all round heavy combat. I mean they did theyr best but hey there is only so much you can fit on a ship.

The Orion actualy has a bite worse then anyone expected.

The Hecate well she barks loud but doesnt really have a strong bite. But is does have a very good fighter projection abilaty and very good C&C funtions to it.

The Deimos is a terror to any pilot to take on but has a very hard time dealing with capships because of its TerSlasher beams.

The Sobek while not such a powerfull enemy to fighters/bommbers it does have good aaaf defences but IMO has better beam firepower the its counterpart. But it is easier to take out a Sobek a lot easier then it is to take out a deimos with a fighter/bommber. Its no walk in the park but its not as dangerous either.

Oh and dont get me started on the whole cruiser thing. The only one worth mentioning is the Aeolous but they arent beeing manufactured anymore so.....

Bascly the GTVA has some big holes to fill in its fleets. And while it does make good use of its tech GTVA command needs to improve both its fleets and its tactics in order to exploit its advantages to the fullest.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

I totaly agree with u on this one Kara. I mean just building loads of battlefrigates such as the Iceni would not be too practical as it is clear that aside from the Hattie and the Orion which while old and a ship which in FS2 kinda shows its age (aaaf blindsports) there are no notable ships to speak of . Ups Sorry I forgot to throw in the Deimso and the Sobek. But the Hattie while powerfull adn with bigger HP isnt meant to deal a one or 2 hit salvo and take out a ship since well it is designed for all round heavy combat. I mean they did theyr best but hey there is only so much you can fit on a ship.

The Orion actualy has a bite worse then anyone expected.

The Hecate well she barks loud but doesnt really have a strong bite. But is does have a very good fighter projection abilaty and very good C&C funtions to it.

The Deimos is a terror to any pilot to take on but has a very hard time dealing with capships because of its TerSlasher beams.

The Sobek while not such a powerfull enemy to fighters/bommbers it does have good aaaf defences but IMO has better beam firepower the its counterpart. But it is easier to take out a Sobek a lot easier then it is to take out a deimos with a fighter/bommber. Its no walk in the park but its not as dangerous either.

Oh and dont get me started on the whole cruiser thing. The only one worth mentioning is the Aeolous but they arent beeing manufactured anymore so.....

Bascly the GTVA has some big holes to fill in its fleets. And while it does make good use of its tech GTVA command needs to improve both its fleets and its tactics in order to exploit its advantages to the fullest.

Well said, Alpha 1. Look at the BFGreens, for instance. They can do (MUCH x 21 126) more damage than at High Noon.

[NGTM-1R]

So it was a GTVA battlefrigate? NOT BUYING IT.

It doesn't have to be of the current generation of GTVA ships really, though. I've long maintained the Iceni is what you get when you shrink a destroyer down by omitting all fightercraft-related systems, spaces, and crew...and probably a good deal of the amenities common on a deepspace warship. I don't doubt the Iceni used cutting-edge (or perhaps overworked...?) technology when it was built. But it was also using a lot more than it probably had to. But all those plasma blobs used up power that could have been put to better use, and removing the facilities and crew necessary to run the NTF from onboard would gain you some space to put to other uses. I think the end the Iceni was very much a no-frills design save for the inclusion of its command ship capablities and it milked that for all it was worth.

My personal belief is that the Iceni is not, in fact, a new ship class at all, merely one that was never built. During the Great War, prior to the development and deployment of the Ursa/Harbinger combination, the GTA lacked a good answer to Shivan destroyers or powerful Shivan cruiser groups. They concluded what they needed was a "pocket destroyer"; the end result was the Iceni, but it was shelved in favor of the newly proven Ursa/Harbinger combination, which was smaller, cheaper, and quicker to deploy. 20 years later, Aken Bosch, casting about for a suitable ship to punch through GTVA defenses to get wherever he needed to go, and possibly survive an encounter with Shivans who wouldn't listen, dug up the old, viable, yet never adopted concept and had it modernized and built.

[FreeSpaceFreak]

The Orion actualy has a bite worse then anyone expected.

The Hecate well she barks loud but doesnt really have a strong bite. But is does have a very good fighter projection abilaty and very good C&C funtions to it.

The Deimos is a terror to any pilot to take on but has a very hard time dealing with capships because of its TerSlasher beams.

The Sobek while not such a powerfull enemy to fighters/bommbers it does have good aaaf defences but IMO has better beam firepower the its counterpart. But it is easier to take out a Sobek a lot easier then it is to take out a deimos with a fighter/bommber. Its no walk in the park but its not as dangerous either.

Oh and dont get me started on the whole cruiser thing. The only one worth mentioning is the Aeolous but they arent beeing manufactured anymore so.....

Bascly the GTVA has some big holes to fill in its fleets. And while it does make good use of its tech GTVA command needs to improve both its fleets and its tactics in order to exploit its advantages to the fullest.

Well said Alpha 1. It's exactly what I was saying. There are three things the Terrans can use to fill the anti-capship gap in their fleet:
1) The Vasudans (Remember Into the Maelstrom? Eighteen months of civil war are beginning to strain Terran-Vasudan relations. Let's hope the GTVA doesn't fall apart...)

2) Bombers (As I said before, imagine Slaying Ravana without the corvette... It would take too long to be strategically viable...)

3) A battleship without fighterbay, but with great anti-capship abilities. Like the Iceni. ngtm1r's theory does make sense though. The GTVA is probably dumb enough to drop (3) in favour of (2)...

[AlphaOne]

A reason to believe that an older version of the Iceni existed is actualy in the Tech room where you are told that the Iceni has limited aaaf abilaties and something about it beeing designed with Great war era aaaf defences in mind. So that could be interpreted as a hint to its origins. Perhaps it was designed soon after the great war enede perhaps a few years after but was put under the desk in favor of other things such as bommbers etc.

It does make sence and it would fit the economical hard period of the GTVA at that period in time. I mean they were in the middle of the reconstruction period they could hardly spend the money and resources of a destroyer in order to build a well something a bit bigger then a Sobek or a Deimos.

Hell at that period in time it could of cost a hell of a lot more.

[Marcus Vesper]

A reason to believe that an older version of the Iceni existed is actualy in the Tech room where you are told that the Iceni has limited aaaf abilaties and something about it beeing designed with Great war era aaaf defences in mind. So that could be interpreted as a hint to its origins. Perhaps it was designed soon after the great war enede perhaps a few years after but was put under the desk in favor of other things such as bommbers etc.

It does make sence and it would fit the economical hard period of the GTVA at that period in time. I mean they were in the middle of the reconstruction period they could hardly spend the money and resources of a destroyer in order to build a well something a bit bigger then a Sobek or a Deimos.

Hell at that period in time it could of cost a hell of a lot more.

I can confirm that the techroom entry for the Iceni in retail FS2 says nothing of the sort.  It might have said that in the Demo's techroom entry, but I'm inclined to think that's just what somebody pointed out somewhere on the wiki page for the Iceni.  Anyhow, the ship doesn't even use it's default table dictated loadout in the missions it's featured in for the most part.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Still, it is interesting to note that the Iceni's a little boxy and lack some good AAA defences. It was probably designed before the Deimos corvette.
Hmm...I sure hope we're not going off-topic...

[AlphaOne]

IF indeed the Iceni was lets say designed before the deimos actualy a few years before that one might say then it fits wel with the overall design and weaponry of the ship.

Also one other thing to note is the Collies extremely long design and building its main reactors and heatsinks could in theory be of an older design so to speak . I mean it would explain why the comander of the Collie says that the beams or rather the heatsinks and reactors were not made to be abused like that for so long.

I'm just throwing and asumption here that with more modern more advanced reactors and heatsinks perhaps the Collie would of done a much better job. Or rather it would not of suffered such damage .


However if you want to talk about failures we can talk also about the Hecate which altough a good ship its aaaf defences should of been a hell of a lot better then they are. I mean sure i can understand the whole concept of carrier in mind design but then you need to offset its weak bams with something else namely aaaf defences.

[jdjtcagle]

I say tactics over firepower.  The Node would be the logical place to take it down.  It's got to be there.

Maybe some kind of out there node lock down device that would rip the hull of any ship that goes through it.  Oooh... maybe Meson Mines... THAT! would be cool

Or Some kind of missile frigate that jumps after some stealth missions manage to destroy the weapons of the Sath.

[AlphaOne]

Well you arent gooing to get anywhere with a missile friggate since well it would take quite a few bombs like the Helio to take out all of the Sath's beams . Also bombs can be shot down beams can not be shot down and they travel in an instants. A good idea for a cruiser fighter/bommber defence scrreen ship but limited in its usage.

[jdjtcagle]

The one thing I'm against in any game is the SUPER-UBER'ness...  There should be a line drawn somewhere, a weakness.  In the freespace universe the only real "shouting" weakness of any ship is the subspace node.

[AlphaOne]

Actualy The real weakness of the GTVA warships are theyr beams . The Shivan weakness is theyr offensive oriented design of the warships wichs makes them vulnerable to fighter/bommber attacks.

[WMCoolmon]

My idea for node-defense:

Best:
A massive hollow diamond sphere, slightly larger than the diameter of the node. The diamond sphere itself would be enclosed in a layer or layers of directional heaters pointing towards the interior of the sphere. The entire apparatus would be mounted on a rig connected to massive reactors, for powering the heaters, as well as a set of engines.

When the GTVA gets word of a Shivan advance, the sphere is powered up and the invading Shivans are vaporized as they enter the node. Not only that, if they try to send something as large as a Sathanas, filling the sphere with liquid Shivan. I don't know what trying to form a subspace exit in solid matter does, but it can't be good.

But best of all, if you want to get into the blockaded system, all you have to do is activate the station-keeping engines and move the sphere out of the way.

Bargain Basement:
A hollow, conical-shaped nose cone made out of extremely dense matter, that's then connected to a flat square made out of the same dense matter, connected by at least four strong cables. When the ship exits subspace, it hits the nosecone, pushing it forward and pulling the plane towards its own wormhole. Eventually the square will get pulled to the event horizon, where we now have an interesting conundrum.

Do the cables break? (Hopefully not)
Does the ship stop halfway in and halfway out of subspace, unable to move as it's trying to pull against itself? (Given the speed that ships exit subspace, this would probably cause massive structural damage at best)
Does the square continue to be pulled forward, whereupon it is integrated into the hull of the ship? (Cutting the ship in two and destroying any control, power, fuel, etc connections that might exist)

[FreeSpaceFreak]

My idea for node-defense:

Best:
A massive hollow diamond sphere, slightly larger than the diameter of the node. The diamond sphere itself would be enclosed in a layer or layers of directional heaters pointing towards the interior of the sphere. The entire apparatus would be mounted on a rig connected to massive reactors, for powering the heaters, as well as a set of engines.

When the GTVA gets word of a Shivan advance, the sphere is powered up and the invading Shivans are vaporized as they enter the node. Not only that, if they try to send something as large as a Sathanas, filling the sphere with liquid Shivan. I don't know what trying to form a subspace exit in solid matter does, but it can't be good.

But best of all, if you want to get into the blockaded system, all you have to do is activate the station-keeping engines and move the sphere out of the way.

Bargain Basement:
A hollow, conical-shaped nose cone made out of extremely dense matter, that's then connected to a flat square made out of the same dense matter, connected by at least four strong cables. When the ship exits subspace, it hits the nosecone, pushing it forward and pulling the plane towards its own wormhole. Eventually the square will get pulled to the event horizon, where we now have an interesting conundrum.

Do the cables break? (Hopefully not)
Does the ship stop halfway in and halfway out of subspace, unable to move as it's trying to pull against itself? (Given the speed that ships exit subspace, this would probably cause massive structural damage at best)
Does the square continue to be pulled forward, whereupon it is integrated into the hull of the ship? (Cutting the ship in two and destroying any control, power, fuel, etc connections that might exist)

I've seen loads of ideas like these before. However, I haven't yet heard any that sound 'FreeSpacey' enough to implement them in the universe. These don't either.
The second one is interesting, however... I bet never thought about the possibility...