[Flipside]

HR Giger has a lot to answer for....

There is no 'grown' look about Biotechnology unless you want it to look grown, that's the whole point of it, to take natural mechanisms and convert them to serve different purposes. There is no law whatsoever that something that is created using a biotechnology has to look 'grown'. Opinions on whether Shivans use it or not aside, let's please get this understood?

[Woolie Wool]

Notice that these are 3D models. I'd have preferred seeing concept art.

They look much the same in the concept art that I've seen, only with the gun ports less evident. Some of the Inferno R1 Shivan fighters--SF Serpent, SB Durja, SB Kahlan, etc. are based on concept art, and they're certainly in the same mechanical nightmare vein as the FS1 fighters.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Notice that these are 3D models. I'd have preferred seeing concept art.

I think there's some concept art of the Ravana and Sathanas in the game credits. Go view it.

[Woolie Wool]

HR Giger has a lot to answer for....

There is no 'grown' look about Biotechnology unless you want it to look grown, that's the whole point of it, to take natural mechanisms and convert them to serve different purposes. There is no law whatsoever that something that is created using a biotechnology has to look 'grown'. Opinions on whether Shivans use it or not aside, let's please get this understood?

Living creatures made of dividing cells tend to have characteristic properties of few or no sharp angles, no perfectly regular shapes (the human eyeball is not entirely spherical and changes shape when focusing on an object, while, for example, the SF Manticore Trashman mentioned has perfect rectangular cross-section '"arms" with 90 degree angles), and lack of uniformity between individual examples (Shivan fighters of a certain class are exactly the same shape and size). Name a living creature that has major body parts with a perfectly rectangular cross section and 90 degree angles.

Here is a picture of the SB Nahema: Notice the geometric design features and metallic highlights in the texture. Notice the straight lines and crisp angles:


The triangular patterns in the SC Raksahasa are definitely not biological:


The SD Ravana has textures that not only show distinct plating, but corrosion as well! Low poly aside, the thing hanging down on the right is not round, but a beveled trapezoid.

[terran_emperor]

Just because something is organic, doesnt mean it has to look like something by Geiger. But that doesnt mean itll look like anything by Seuss or the Joe Strazynski fellow

[Flipside]

There's no law whatsoever in nature that states that edges must be round etc etc, that's a Hollywood view of Biotech. The human eyeball is probably one of the most advanced organs on a human being. It's also not a space fighter designed to take several megaton impacts, so yes it can be soft, malleable and rounded.

Cells and other biological structures are put into place as instructed from several sources, including, but not relying on, DNA. If they are 'told' to make a square edge, they will do so.

[FreeSpaceFreak]

Cells and other biological structures are put into place as instructed from several sources, including, but not relying on, DNA. If they are 'told' to make a square edge, they will do so.

And if they are grown into a prefabricated square (or round, triangular, whatever) box, they will do so even more. And that would explain Woolie's "non-biological" look too.

[Aardwolf]

None of your biological theories explain why the Shivan ships have metal textures!

[terran_emperor]

Dude, Armour

[Aardwolf]

So if the hull is armored with metal, and that's the only exposed part, what are you basing 'organic' on? The only two things I can think of are the FS1 tech description of Shivans, which states that they had biomechanical armor (the Shivans themselves), and Derelict's boarding party, which is non-canon. Furthermore, in Hallfight, the interior of that ship... look, metal!

[Flipside]

Bones are made largely of calcium, which is a metal, once again, there's no reason at all why that couldn't be adapted to create an exoskeleton using other metals.

[terran_emperor]

When i say Armour, i mean either like a lobster shell - it growns out of the old armour then its skin hardens into the new stuff, or it is like the shell a hermit crab uses - as each ship grows it picks up a new set of armour

Besides...Who says the evolution of an Alien race has to happen the way it did to us? I think it very possible for a race to evolve metalic exo-skelletons. And for those of you who say "that doesnt make sense" - who says evolutions has to make sense? Hell the known patterns of evolution make no sense as it is. I mean where the heck did nature come up with some of the designs? The Duck-billed platterpuss? The hammerhead shark?


The only about evolution thaat makes sense it Natural Selection - Survival of the fittest.

[Flipside]

The only about evolution thaat makes sense it Natural Selection - Survival of the fittest.

And ironically enough, Darwin hated that phrase, it was made by a reporter trying to explain it to the masses, and Darwin always pointed out that it wasn't entirely accurate

[Woolie Wool]

There's no law whatsoever in nature that states that edges must be round etc etc, that's a Hollywood view of Biotech. The human eyeball is probably one of the most advanced organs on a human being. It's also not a space fighter designed to take several megaton impacts, so yes it can be soft, malleable and rounded.

Cells and other biological structures are put into place as instructed from several sources, including, but not relying on, DNA. If they are 'told' to make a square edge, they will do so.

How do you reconcile the fact that Shivan ships of a certain class are all the same shape and size and appear to be entirely identical? Not even identical twins, which share all of their DNA, are truly alike. The nature of biological growth means that there will be variations between individuals.

[Flipside]

In a similar vein, could you tell the difference between 2 cockroaches, despite the fact that, to each other, there might be a whole wealth of subtle differences? Unless they have some kind of physical imperfection, or there's a difference in size, it's almost impossible for humans to tell the difference between the members of several other species.

It could also be said making a different model or texture for every Shivan ship in the game would be an extremely wearisome task

Edit: Bees are another good example.

[Asuko]

Putting this on another perspective, how about if the ships were 'cyberized'? A ship could be a biotech framework with metal plating and features done on the exterior in order to make it more resilient.

[Flipside]

I'd say that's a more likely explanation the fully Biotech to be honest. As Aardwolf stated, the Shivans used Biomechanical armour, most likely an enhanced muscle frame with metal carapace or the like, and I seem to recall that Volition confirmed that the Shivans were inside those suits, though I'm not certain about that, which would mean that kind of tech was certainly available to them if it is true.

Things like muscles simply won't function in space for the main part, it's too cold for non-rigid biological constructs, but a biological framework with embedded technology sounds more plausible. Ships would still be constructed, but by creating the under-systems using biological techniques, the construction time could theoretically be greatly reduced.

[Woolie Wool]

I'd say that's a more likely explanation the fully Biotech to be honest. As Aardwolf stated, the Shivans used Biomechanical armour, most likely an enhanced muscle frame with metal carapace or the like, and I seem to recall that Volition confirmed that the Shivans were inside those suits, though I'm not certain about that, which would mean that kind of tech was certainly available to them if it is true.

Things like muscles simply won't function in space for the main part, it's too cold for non-rigid biological constructs, but a biological framework with embedded technology sounds more plausible. Ships would still be constructed, but by creating the under-systems using biological techniques, the construction time could theoretically be greatly reduced.

Megascale biostructures would take centuries if not millennia to grow.

[terran_emperor]

Not if you know how to force-grown it in a few days, which i suspect the shivans know how to do

[Woolie Wool]

Not if you know how to force-grown it in a few days, which i suspect the shivans know how to do

And how will you do this? Magic wand?