[karajorma]

Given that you seem to hold diametrically opposite views on whether the death penalty is valid for Christians I'd say he is. Even if not directly.

[G0atmaster]

Supporting the death penalty at all is unchristian is the point I'm making. Even if you claim you only support the death penalty for Stalin and Pol Pot it's still an unchristian point of view.

As for repentance how many times have you heard of people repenting 30-40 years later for crimes they committed. Claiming that facing death may make some people repent is not the issue.

Yeah right... Like I'm gonna be tutored about my religion by you.
Excuse me if I completely ignore you trying to dictate what I should think.

Based on what I've seen and read, better than him to try and learn it from you, sir.

@G0atmaster

murder = killing.  killing =/= murder.  All murder is killing.  Not all killing is murder.  How can you not understand that?  Just look at how many words we have in English to describe types of killing.  If your statement were true, all soldiers, all executioners, and everyone put on trial for the death of another human being would be convicted of murder.

What I'm saying that either we are arguing semantics. Murder is non-government sanctioned killing. Basicely, thats it. So killing is esentially murder, the only difference is if someone is gonna say it was legal.
I would like it if it were no killing..ever.
It's clear we, the humanity,  have exceptions. If you admit exceptions exist then who's to say this isn't a exception too?

There are no exceptions when it comes to God.  He follows all His own rules to the letter.  He must if  He is to be perfect.  Even the Miracles talked about in the Bible followed the laws of the Universe.  The food Christ used to feed the 5000 indeed nourished them.  The wine Christ made from water did indeed make the people drunk.  The fire God sent down to Elijah did indeed burn.

I too would like it if there were no more killing.  But the fact remains that we are not merely arguing semantics.  Self-defense is not government-sanctioned killing, yet it is not murder.  Driving someone over in your car because you're drunk or not paying attention or asleep is not murder.

This is getting beyond frustrating.  2 Peter Chapter 2.  Read it, Trashman, and learn from it.

For what purpose then?  And "that's gotta count for something" sure makes it sound like you're keeping tally.

For the purpose of having a good memory, that's why. And yes, I do very much believe not all sins are equal.

So are you about to say that Christ's blood isn't enough to atone for all sin?  Who are you to put limits on the amazingness of God's grace?  Back your belief that not all sins are equal with some scripture, please.  I'm interested in reading where you get your twisted ideas of Sin and forgiveness..

ANYTHING that is decietful or ANYTHING that is shameful will keep you from entering the city, but for Christ's blood.  This drops all lies and all shameful acts to the same level of "j00 got permabanned from Heaven, d00d."

I don't see it. I'm interpreting that passage differently. Too bad.

There is no interpreting that passage differently, dude.  It says what it says and that's all here is to the matter.  

"Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."  -That's in Revelation, talking about entering Heaven.

Nothing impure.  That's not open to interpretation.  "Anyone" is not open to interpretation.  "Shameful" and "deceitful" are not open to interpretation.  "Nothing impure will ever enter it" is not open to interpretation.  These are all absolute and crystal clear phrases.  If you're gonna argue about interpretations of Scripture, try picking a passage that's not as precisely worded.

And it is impossible to keep your faith out of matters that are governed largely by faith, as the entire lives of so-called "christians" should be.

[jdjtcagle]

Given that you seem to hold diametrically opposite views on whether the death penalty is valid for Christians I'd say he is. Even if not directly.

I held true that the bible does teach capital punishment.  Doesn't he agree with that?  From what I can tell he basically said he doesn't agree with the concept of being pro-life and agree with the death penalty.

Am I missing something... Goat where am I wrong?

[karajorma]

Okay, based on what I understand the laws from the Old Testament were superseded by the new covenant with Jesus and therefore the punishments detailed within don't apply to Christians.

That leaves you on much shakier ground.

You pointed out that Jesus didn't challenge Pilate's right to crucify him. Why would he? He'd already decided to die for the sins of mankind. What did you suggest he should do in order to do that if not be crucified? What you claim is implicit support for capitol punishment could just as likely be pointing out that Pilate only has the authority to execute him because God has already decided that Jesus should die for mankind's sins.

Paul on the other hand could easily have been talking about the legal rather than moral right of the Romans to execute him. Which is what GOatmaster was referring to in his reply to you on the subject.

[Wobble73]

It always seemed to me that the story of the Crucifixion was one of protest at state sanctioned execution. Here is the most innocent of men being put to death because of the politics of men!

[TrashMan]

When I say you're wrong about Catholicism you can claim I don't know Christianity. But it takes a very special kind of arrogance to claim that you know more about it than the Pope.

And when did I say that? Religion is more than reading a old book, and you sure as hell ain't the Pope. I know very well what the Churches stances on things are and what my religion sez.


-----------------------

There are no exceptions when it comes to God. 

Oh? Then why does it say (as you say yourself) "Thou shall not MURDER."? If there were no  exception it would say "Thou shall not kill".

Speaking of which, why are you continually dragging religion into it? The Death Penalty is a government determined thing. Sure, you can say what your religion states about that, but a government is supposed to be secular, so capital punishment should be discussed as such.

There is no interpreting that passage differently, dude.  It says what it says and that's all here is to the matter. 

As I say they very much is. God absolves of all sins, therefore no one enters heaven with a sin...but that doesn't mean all sins are equal.



And I say again - tone it down guys. You're reading way much into this. Chill.

[G0atmaster]

Somewhat right, somewhat not, Karajorma.  My point in my responce to JD was that the Bible does indeed say we should submit to authority because God put authority figures in power, which seemed to be the basis of his argument for the death penalty.  My response basically said, "yes, but you can say the same about abortion."  The current authority of the United States states that both abortion and the death penalty are legal.  Therefore,  if that is the basis of your argument, you can't support one and not the other if you're a Christian living in the United States. 

There are no exceptions when it comes to God. 

Oh? Then why does it say (as you say yourself) "Thou shall not MURDER."? If there were no  exception it would say "Thou shall not kill".

The law is "Do not Murder," therefore, this not an exception to the law.  The way the law is defined is not and cannot be an exception to the very law defined!  There is no law that says "Do not kill, period," therefore, the law that says "do not murder" is not an exception to the law "Do not kill," because there is no such law.

Speaking of which, why are you continually dragging religion into it? The Death Penalty is a government determined thing. Sure, you can say what your religion states about that, but a government is supposed to be secular, so capital punishment should be discussed as such.

I give you the quote from the original, topic-starting post:

Hey, I was just wondering t other people on this forum thought about Capital Punishment.

As you'll note, the topic asked what others thought about Capital Punishment.  My thoughts on this subject are governed by my belief in God, as are many things.

There is no interpreting that passage differently, dude.  It says what it says and that's all here is to the matter. 

As I say they very much is. God absolves of all sins, therefore no one enters heaven with a sin...but that doesn't mean all sins are equal.

What do you mean by the sentence, "As I say they very much is?"
Also, how can you say there is such a thing as a "small" or "lesser" sin if they ALL would keep you from the presence of God?

[karajorma]

And when did I say that? Religion is more than reading a old book, and you sure as hell ain't the Pope. I know very well what the Churches stances on things are and what my religion sez.

This should be good for a laugh. What is it your religion sez then?

I'll hear your side and then prove exactly how full of **** you are by linking to the Holy See site.

[TrashMan]

The law is "Do not Murder," therefore, this not an exception to the law.  The way the law is defined is not and cannot be an exception to the very law defined!  There is no law that says "Do not kill, period," therefore, the law that says "do not murder" is not an exception to the law "Do not kill," because there is no such law.

And yet what constitues for murder is up for debate...

What do you mean by the sentence, "As I say they very much is?"
Also, how can you say there is such a thing as a "small" or "lesser" sin if they ALL would keep you from the presence of God?

Hell. Think it over. Or purgatory. Will I spend the same ammount of time there for killing a baby in cold blood and stealing a candy?
Speaking of which, every priest I talked to seems ot agree with me on this matter.

This should be good for a laugh. What is it your religion sez then?

Oh, you misunderstood. I do very well know my religion and the stances of the Church.  However I said that *I* have my doubts about a few..I don't have to agree with everything to the letter 100%.

[Polpolion]

I don't have to agree with everything to the letter 100%.

Actually you do. I mean, it's technically inappropriate to pick and choose which aspects of a faith you are going to accept as truth or not.

[TrashMan]

I'm not denying anything. I just might not follow it trough 100%.

It's sorta like promising I'll never lie again. I can try, but I know that's a promise I have practicely 0 chance of keeping.

[G0atmaster]

The law is "Do not Murder," therefore, this not an exception to the law.  The way the law is defined is not and cannot be an exception to the very law defined!  There is no law that says "Do not kill, period," therefore, the law that says "do not murder" is not an exception to the law "Do not kill," because there is no such law.

And yet what constitues for murder is up for debate...

It is not either!  Didn't you read above?  I posted the definition of first-degree murder plainly enough for you to see!  Sheesh, what is it with you trying to "reinterpret" absolute things!?

What do you mean by the sentence, "As I say they very much is?"
Also, how can you say there is such a thing as a "small" or "lesser" sin if they ALL would keep you from the presence of God?

Hell. Think it over. Or purgatory. Will I spend the same ammount of time there for killing a baby in cold blood and stealing a candy?
Speaking of which, every priest I talked to seems ot agree with me on this matter.

Oh, here we go...  Show me a SINGLE piece of Scripture that speaks a SINGLE word on Purgatory, and I will freaking find a way to email you a candybar.  Buying "Purgatory candles" and burning them to lessen your loved ones' time in Purgatory is rubbish.  Paying the Catholic Church for pennance to lessen your time and the time of your loved ones in Purgatory is rubbish.  Not knowing the doctrine you claim to believe and the doctrine the church you follow claims to believe is how you, my friend, allow yourself to be lied to and get taken advantage of.  When it comes to the Bible, the idea of Purgatory balderdash.  Again, 2 Peter 2.

This should be good for a laugh. What is it your religion sez then?

Oh, you misunderstood. I do very well know my religion and the stances of the Church.  However I said that *I* have my doubts about a few..I don't have to agree with everything to the letter 100%.

This sort of pick-and-choose Christianity is what leads to fanaticism and stuff being blowed up.  It also leads to very weak faith, and doctrinal contradictions.

[Nuclear1]

Murder is the taking of another human being's life, usually premeditated. That usually gets a second- or first-degree murder in most legal systems.

Manslaughter is the taking of another human being's life, usually unintentionally or without control of your emotions. Examples: vehicular manslaughter or reckless homicide.

Killing someone who has a gun pointed at you or a fellow soldier in combat is obeying a lawful order. Shooting up Iraqi villages and executing civilians is a warcrime and every soldier in the US military has an obligation to disobey such an order and report it up their chain of command.

Killing in self-defense can either lessen a sentence or get an acquittal for the action. You as a human being have a right to your life, liberty, and property. This is the basis for the patents system, and why theft is just as illegal as murder. You have a right to protest legislation that aims to take your liberty, and you have the right to defend your life.

Honestly, when I see a religious "justification" for state-sponsored execution or any murder, I dismiss it as some of the most backwards barbarism I've ever heard. All Middle Eastern religions (hell, nearly all religions) teach three basic things:
1. Don't be a dickhead to other people.
2. Don't be a douchebag to other people.
3. Be nice to everyone.

The other 99% of stuff in the Bible, Torah, Hadith, Koran, etc. is all just bull**** added in by people later that starts wars and "justifies" racism, homophobia, and general douchebaggery. We really could be better off without it all.

Religion should be your own personal connection with a higher power. It should never be about telling other people how to live their lives.

Basically, all I see here is people arguing and *****ing over the bull**** parts of the Bible. And before you say it, this is not me having a pick and choose approach to Christianity. This is Christianity. Jesus died for my sins, and told me not to be a douchebag to others. I acknowledge and follow that.

I don't believe God told me to hate homosexuals or believe state-sponsored execution is right. Believe me, I have my non-religious reasons for supporting capital punishment.

Sentencing someone to death should never, ever, ever, ever have even the remote justification of "God said it was OK."

[BloodEagle]

I don't believe God told me to hate homosexuals [...].

Please point to the verse where Jesus said to hate homosexuals anyone. 

[Nuclear1]

Last I checked, the "sexually immoral" were some of those going into John's lake of fire. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is also a favorite.

Did Jesus say it? No, and I never said Jesus did. There's plenty of Old Testament God Christians like to believe in.

Unfortunately, Old Testament God is vengeful God, destroying whole cities with fire, allowing Jerusalem to fall to the Babylonians, letting loose venomous snakes among the Hebrews in the wilderness, etc etc etc. Is there forgiving God in the Old Testament? Yes, and plenty of, but who besides medical professionals remembers the bronze snake?

Like I said: Love your neighbor as yourself. That's all Christianity, Judaism, and Islam need to be. The rest is bullcrap.

[Mefustae]

Like I said: Love your neighbor as yourself. That's all Christianity, Judaism, and Islam need to be. The rest is bullcrap.

But... But... But... How else are we supposed to justify our petty prejudices and hatreds? You can't seriously expect us all to admit openly how racist, sexist and homophobic we are. That would make us wrong. We're just doing what God tells us to do, hating who He tells us to hate. It's not us, it's Him!

[Ford Prefect]

I think religion is actually pretty peripheral in contemporary American racism. We've moved on to justifying it by pretending it doesn't exist.

Actually that's true of sexism as well.

[jdjtcagle]

Somewhat right, somewhat not, Karajorma.  My point in my responce to JD was that the Bible does indeed say we should submit to authority because God put authority figures in power, which seemed to be the basis of his argument for the death penalty.  My response basically said, "yes, but you can say the same about abortion."  The current authority of the United States states that both abortion and the death penalty are legal.  Therefore,  if that is the basis of your argument, you can't support one and not the other if you're a Christian living in the United States.

I knew I was on par with you the whole time, I couldn't understand where Kara was saying I was against you... thanks for clearing that up

It seems that this thread is gone... no rational arguments - just "fast-food" religion for the most part which in turn leads to Christian bashing
Anyway, good luck to you... but people will believe what they feel is right and it is apparent that no thought is being put into the fact (what if I'm wrong?)

So sorry again for the confusion

[karajorma]

I'd rather this didn't become a debate on Christianity as a whole. So far people are doing a reasonable job of not straying too far from the original topic.

Oh, you misunderstood. I do very well know my religion and the stances of the Church.  However I said that *I* have my doubts about a few..I don't have to agree with everything to the letter 100%.

I'm not denying anything. I just might not follow it trough 100%.

The whole position of the Catholic church on the matter is based on the sanctity of life. You can't just doubt a little bit of the sanctity of life. You either believe it or don't believe it. You can't say "all life is sacred, except for murders, rapists and other people I don't like." That's not a small disagreement with the position of the Vatican. By saying that ANY life isn't sacred you deny the entire position of the church on the matter.

And again I'll point out that it takes a very special kind of arrogance for a Catholic to say "I understand Catholicism better than the Pope does cause I'm right and he is wrong."

[TrashMan]

It is not either!  Didn't you read above?  I posted the definition of first-degree murder plainly enough for you to see!  Sheesh, what is it with you trying to "reinterpret" absolute things!?

That's not a Bible's definition of murder (actually, I don't recall there being a definition about it in the Bible). Since you're the one arguing for the religious POV, the definitions accepted by government institutions and laws are irrelevant, aren't they?

Oh, here we go...  Show me a SINGLE piece of Scripture that speaks a SINGLE word on Purgatory, and I will freaking find a way to email you a candybar.  Buying "Purgatory candles" and burning them to lessen your loved ones' time in Purgatory is rubbish.  Paying the Catholic Church for pennance to lessen your time and the time of your loved ones in Purgatory is rubbish.  Not knowing the doctrine you claim to believe and the doctrine the church you follow claims to believe is how you, my friend, allow yourself to be lied to and get taken advantage of.  When it comes to the Bible, the idea of Purgatory balderdash.  Again, 2 Peter 2.

Yeah, I know the concept of purgatory has been removed recently from official Church doctrine. I just put it in to be on the safe side.
That still doesn't prove anything, sorry. My point of an alternate interpretation still stands.


Speaking of which, I repeat - CHILL.

I'm discussing this purely because it's an interesting topic to discuss, NOT because I'm trying to prove something or expect a specific result. I'm just bored and this seems like a good way to kill time (not in the modding mood atm). So bring it down a notch.