[nubbles526]

Well, was just thinking about FreeSpace 1. Probably, the true horror of FS1 is the Lucifer. I mean, we havn't seen such a ship which can destroy planets and capital ships in a few shots. But, what are the purposes of other capital ships inside FreeSpace 1? They are useful to transpot fighters at the early stages of the campaign. But after the invention of Hyperspace Drives on fighters, capital ships have lost  their usability.

So, why did they make Capital ships in the first place? They are expensive, they could barely protect themselves without flaks and beams. They can be destroyed WITHOUT other capital ships. Two wings of bombers with fighter escort is enough to destroy an Orion. How embarrassing is that? They areonly good for the moral of the pilots, in my perpective.

[Jeff Vader]

Probably, the true horror of FS1 is the Lucifer. I mean, we havn't seen such a ship which can destroy planets and capital ships in a few shots.

Akshully, the Lucifer (fleet) bombarded Vasuda Prime for 13 hours.

But, what are the purposes of other capital ships inside FreeSpace 1? They are useful to transpot fighters at the early stages of the campaign. But after the invention of Hyperspace Drives on fighters, capital ships have lost  their usability.

So, why did they make Capital ships in the first place? They are expensive, they could barely protect themselves without flaks and beams. They can be destroyed WITHOUT other capital ships. Two wings of bombers with fighter escort is enough to destroy an Orion. How embarrassing is that? They areonly good for the moral of the pilots, in my perpective.

If you think back a bit more, you might remember that before the encounter with the Shivans, there was no such thing as "shields". Capital ships were a menace to smaller ships when the smaller ships weren't shielded. And two wings of bombers can take out an Orion? Correct me if I'm incorrect, but Orions and other destroyers are known to be able to launch fighters. Fighters that might have a remote possibility of providing anti-bomber support.

[Rodo]

for keeping lustrous generals under control??? look at what happened with Bosch... crappy ship... "the hell with command! Im making my own solar sistem right here!"

[Kie99]

They're essentially Carriers.

[Droid803]

We can all agree that Fenris are worthless meat, though, as a single Herc can take one down in less than a minute.

They're essentially Carriers.

Yeah. Sure, fighters have subspace drives, but the pilots need somewhere to live.

[nubbles526]

If you think back a bit more, you might remember that before the encounter with the Shivans, there was no such thing as "shields". Capital ships were a menace to smaller ships when the smaller ships weren't shielded. And two wings of bombers can take out an Orion? Correct me if I'm incorrect, but Orions and other destroyers are known to be able to launch fighters. Fighters that might have a remote possibility of providing anti-bomber support.

I think Kie99 and Droid803 are correct....since pilot's live support system do run out.

But in terms of combat...an Orion can only survive from an attack is through fighters and bombers. On themselves, they are...in fact...useless.

A FS2 era capital ship could easily defend itself from a kamikaze attack a long with some fighter support. The FS1 mission where HOL suicides are used is such a pain.

[AlphaOne]

You can not secure a sistem with just fighters and bommber you need something with relly BIG guns to smash through the defences of the enemy .

Also i believe that now during FS2 capital ships are even more important then before .

With the advent of beam cannons and flack capital ships can grind to dust numerous wings of fighters and bombers. Sure we must agree that there are some exceptions such as the Orion for instance a ship which sacrifices aaaf abylaties for its sheer beam cannon firepower.

No matter how much you try you can never ever hope to beat an enemy with just fighters and bombers. I mean the Deimos for example can grind to dust an entire destroyer complement of fighters and bombers should it now be swarmed by all those ships at once.

Also instalatyons and other defended nodes will most defyneteli have the means to defend for a long time against fighter bomber assaults. This means you nead heavy cap ships for smashing through.

We should all remember that capital ships in FS2 suck not because they are not properly armed (well some of them arent) but because they are not used correctly or they do not have the proper escort .

And with the shivans that can jump on a dime not providing proper escort for your capships is THE biggest mistake you can make.

[Blue Lion]

Well clearly FS2 era ships in FS1 would totally skew the conflict.

[nvsblmnc]

The behaviour of the capital ships in FreeSpace is badly skewed by the need for the player to feel useful.  Based on the techroom descriptions and the reactions of characters to their presence, a FreeSpace capship is an awesome weapon.

The reason they're so vulnerable to fighters and bombers is because that's all the player can ever throw at them, and it would be slightly problematic if it took hundreds of bombers to kill a destroyer.

I get the feeling that they're supposed to be truly devastating vessels - even the Fenris - but this was passed over in favour of gameplay.

[Rodo]

The behaviour of the capital ships in FreeSpace is badly skewed by the need for the player to feel useful.  Based on the techroom descriptions and the reactions of characters to their presence, a FreeSpace capship is an awesome weapon.

The reason they're so vulnerable to fighters and bombers is because that's all the player can ever throw at them, and it would be slightly problematic if it took hundreds of bombers to kill a destroyer.

I get the feeling that they're supposed to be truly devastating vessels - even the Fenris - but this was passed over in favour of gameplay.

it's true, player role was upholded, it's sad games always turn to be "not realistic"... but it's still a great game j^^

it's been tryed to minimize the dammage inflicted by the players guns??

[Mars]

Well even think back to the beginning of FS1, the Orff takes out several wings of Anubis fighters while taking very little damage itself. Shields and weapons more powerful than the ML-16 are the Fenris's demise.

[FreeSpaceFreak]

I think the Fenris (the Levy only came in later) could have been useful to keep control over non-frontline systems, where the GTA didn't need a destroyer but did want some warship to be present, just in case.

[Droid803]

Actually, a Leviathan is legitimate threat.
It isn't that easy to kill one in a fighter. In FS1, the blobs can do serious damage even with shields, and in FS2, its 4 AAAfs will tear you to shreds. The Leviathan also has respectable anti-warship firepower in both games due to its Fusion Mortar, which is the most powerful warship-warship weapon in FS1 short of the Shivan Super Laser. (Vasudan Flux Cannon is not used)

Its the Fenris that is worthless due to its paper thin armor. Its "prescence" in the system doesn't do much as most likely, it'll be dead within seconds of a serious firefight. The Aten's no better, nor is the Cain. (The Lilith shall not be spoken of here.) Kamikaze Fenris, though, might me a legitimate tactic

[FreeSpaceFreak]

What I mean, is that the Fenris was probably used for counter-insurgency. Like, a whole bunch of stellar miners going on strike? Send in a Fenris and things will be OK. There aren't supposed to be 'serious firefights' in non frontline systems, so you don't need to pin a destroyer there.

Also, for destroyer escort, a Fenris would be nice. An Orion can't properly defend itself so one or two Fenris cruisers would buy it time to launch its fighters. After which, the Fenris is/are fighter-covered and can strike some serious blows to unshielded fighters.

[Mars]

The FS1 Fenris can take out an Aten most of the time, and piss off a Cain pretty bad.

[Droid803]

Yeah, but the fact that any random loser in a fighter with a bank of hornets can kill it in a pass or two is rather disheartening.
I'd guess a Fenris could be used for destroyer escort, however, they'd probably be dead by the time the fighters were launched.

[nubbles526]

Let's take the trinity (a fenris) for example. When it was stuck in the Nebula, it's beam cannons were offline. Notice how badly it could defend itself using only FS1 era weaponary, and the fact that it has bad armour. If I were terran command, I would chose to manufacture 2-5 wings of fighters rather than a fenris.

[Flipside]

Objectives.

You need something to defend/attack, a 'base' or 'flag' or the like, in the case of Freespace, it was a Capship. Make the capships too powerful, and the fighters cease to matter, make the fighters too powerful, and the Capships cease to matter. Considering your main enemy have some really nasty capships, I think it pretty much balances out.

After all, whilst fighters might be able to take out a capship with time (Remember, the Fenris is old compared to a lot of the fighters it is up against), a mission to kill a single enemy fighter, or even a wing of them would be over a heck of a lot faster.

[WMCoolmon]

In FS1, as pointed out, fighters didn't have shields and they didn't have intersystem jump drives. So capital ships were needed, and it follows that you don't want to have several tons of fighter fuel and ordinance sitting defenseless somewhere in the system. With heavy armor plating and gun turrets, they became formidable forces, and portable fortresses. They can also carry large amounts of supplies, run or destroy blockades that would inflict heavy fighter casualties, and most importantly - provide a friendly base. Remember in FS1 that it was a war between two species. On-planet bases may not have been designed with the holding teams' physiology in mind, or they may have just left the ground troops alone so long as they didn't have any anti-capship weapons.

Regardless, there's an important psychological aspect to being on a ship in orbit vs being on a planet surrounded by thousands of aliens. They also serve as a rallying point or morale support (see Colossus).

I'm not sure why capital ships were kept in such great numbers during Freespace 2. It may have to do with the period of chaos after the first Shivan incursion. More police action of poorly-armed civilian ships, where a scary capital ship is more important than the raw force of a squadron of bombers. It also provides a platform for launching marines or holding prisoners.

It may just be that it was so ingrained in the way that GTVA tactics and strategy were laid out, fleet composition, etc. that they were unwilling to take such a radical step as eliminating capital ships entirely. Capships in FS2 are also pretty damn powerful when deployed in supporting groups. But you're right, in general they don't seem to be anywhere near as valuable as fighters, and there's minimal advantages to be had in transporting things (people or prisoners) where the Shivans are involved, at least outside of Capella or SOC capture operations.

[nubbles526]

Regardless, there's an important psychological aspect to being on a ship in orbit vs being on a planet surrounded by thousands of aliens. They also serve as a rallying point or morale support (see Colossus).

Ooohhhh...I like this statement.

By the way, have you worked on the TAP build lately?