[Scuddie]

I've heard that people in Giza are starving to death, I've heard that Israel are deliberately targeting Mosques and Hospitals specifically to kill civillians, I've heard that Hamas is Hiding in Mosques and Hospitals so Israel bombs them and kills civilians, I've heard that everything is Israel's fault and they should all die, I've heard that Hamas don't actually have the best interest for people in mind, much less their own people...

The sad part is that all of the above is occurring.  It's a sad day when two sides of the same coin are allowed to exist in a conflict.  MAD in action can only lead to an irrecoverable reaction, like the mininuke Israel appears to have used...  though it's more likely it was a highly compressed hydrocarbon storage (a quasi-nuke waiting to happen) because of the way it was burning afterward.  But again, both may be true.

[General Battuta]

Mininuke? That was nowhere near nuke size.

[Bob-san]

Mininuke? That was nowhere near nuke size.

Or mininuke size. It probably hit a gasoline tank. One big bang of the fumes going up, then a sustained fire from the liquid fuming off.

[Polpolion]

My brother said that was probably a 1000 pound bomb they dropped.

[eliex]

It's also the mentality of the people. I mean, when a current adult was a kid, then his/her parents teach them the hate the Israelis. I mean, look. They aren't even scared to suicide to kill other people.

[IceFire]

I've heard that people in Giza are starving to death, I've heard that Israel are deliberately targeting Mosques and Hospitals specifically to kill civillians, I've heard that Hamas is Hiding in Mosques and Hospitals so Israel bombs them and kills civilians, I've heard that everything is Israel's fault and they should all die, I've heard that Hamas don't actually have the best interest for people in mind, much less their own people...

The sad part is that all of the above is occurring.  It's a sad day when two sides of the same coin are allowed to exist in a conflict.  MAD in action can only lead to an irrecoverable reaction, like the mininuke Israel appears to have used...  though it's more likely it was a highly compressed hydrocarbon storage (a quasi-nuke waiting to happen) because of the way it was burning afterward.  But again, both may be true.

Definitely not a conventionally sized nuke (plus people would be going nuts because you can't just sneakily detonate a nuke...anywhere that has a sensitive radiation sensor would be liable to pick up some sort of increased radioactivity).  That probably wasn't even a large bomb.  Probably in the 1000lb to 2000lb range...the Luftwaffe and Royal Air Force were dropping those kinds of bombs on each other for years during WWII (historical fact...not attempting to set precedent or the like)...and none of those were anywhere close to the 22,000lb Grand Slam bomb or the 12,000lb Tallboy bomb of which one was likely responsible for capsizing the German battleship Tirpitz.  Just because a blast is bright or looks large doesn't mean that:

1) the bomb was nuclear
2) the bomb was large in and of itself

[Scuddie]

Yeah, poor choice of wording on my part.  I didn't mean to imply Israel used a tactical grade subterranean nuclear warhead (very uncommon, but that's beside the point).  I was illustrating that it's just as likely that the IAF used a high grade warhead as if they hit a highly compressed hydrocarbon supply, which would be a hazard by just existing.  I was just calling it what it appeared to be, not what I thought it was .

Someday I might learn to say what I mean without saying what I don't mean indirectly.

[Sandwich]

My guess is that whatever it was hit a large explosives lab.

...Stored in the back room of a gas station.

Or something like that.

[IPAndrews]

...Stored in the back room of a gas station.

A mosque surely.

[Grizzly]

...Stored in the back room of a gas station.

A mosque surely.

Isn't it rather ... against the ruels to store any form of weaponry in a Mosque?

[Mars]

Since when has Hamas cared about the rules. (I say with the full understanding that it's a complicated issue.)

[TrashMan]

ah, the case of the bombardments and its inevitable civilian casualties, and the quetion of who is responsible.
First we must know that Hamas (and Hezbollah) expressly places their stockpiles and military instalations in the midst of civilian infrastructure, with the intent of using these civilians -with or without their agreement!- as living shields. This in order to use the resulting casualties and pictures thereoff as a propaganda-tool against Israel. This activity (also used by Saddam and Milosevic to use a few others) is expressly forbidden by the Conventions. Since Hamas engages in this activity with a strategical and tactical goal in mind it alone is responsible for the victims of their choice.

You got any proof of that except the local Israeli media? I find it hard to believe that UN schools, hospitals and mosks are major centers or terrorist activity. Even if they were, you know that they will be full of civilians because they are what they are. If you still insist on targeting them, you're not better than the worst war criminal.

bottom line - Israel is an advanced, western state - once would expect it to follow all the conventions and rules of warfare. Hamas is, by your own words, a terrorist organization - you can't really expect the same behavior from both of them.
I don't buy their excuses - from either side. But I believe Israel is a greater culprit cause it should know better.

[shiven_warior]

You got any proof of that except the local Israeli media?

 heres a link, see what you can make up of it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d85zIeHwFDY&watch_response

 

[Mongoose]

bottom line - Israel is an advanced, western state - once would expect it to follow all the conventions and rules of warfare. Hamas is, by your own words, a terrorist organization - you can't really expect the same behavior from both of them.
I don't buy their excuses - from either side. But I believe Israel is a greater culprit cause it should know better.

Fighting a war on some sort of nobler or more hands-off level than a desperate enemy doesn't do anything but get your own troops killed.  (See: Vietnam)  Ugly truth, perhaps, but the truth nonetheless.  Israel's kind of damned whatever they do in this situation, so they might as well make the best of the opportunity.

[Splinter]

You got any proof of that except the local Israeli media? I find it hard to believe that UN schools, hospitals and mosks are major centers or terrorist activity.

Rocket launchers placed in populated areas, Mosque...s being used to store weapons, Using civilian areas as cover for attacks, Un schools and Ambulances being used by Hamas etc... etc... etc...

Even if they were, you know that they will be full of civilians because they are what they are. If you still insist on targeting them, you're not better than the worst war criminal.

You bet that Israel or anyone would still target those locations. Civilians, even though that title can cause some people to assume so, are just like you and me. They are not a colony of mentally challenged people they are rational human beings with just as much brain capacity as the next person. The Hamas uses their buildings to fire weapons mortars and even rockets from. Have you ever been around any of these when they go off? You can't miss it. So knowing this would it not be prudent to say that they A. know that Hamas is using thier building and they are ignoring it because they want to be another death racked up to 'civilian' casualties and get 72 virgins? B. Know that Hamas is using the building and because they don't have the will or the means to stop them they leave the premises before the retaliation they KNOW is coming? C. Know that Hamas is using the building but they cannot leave because the Hamas has threatened them and their families and are using them as human shields (which has been reported BY the Palestinians themselves as being the case)

And even though it's fairly safe to say that this would be the case that is not enough and, as I pointed out before, Israel has made a point of going to extreme measures to warn citizens whenever and however possible

bottom line - Israel is an advanced, western state - once would expect it to follow all the conventions and rules of warfare. Hamas is, by your own words, a terrorist organization - you can't really expect the same behavior from both of them.
I don't buy their excuses - from either side. But I believe Israel is a greater culprit cause it should know better.

And what are the rules of warfare in this situation? Does it say somewhere that if the enemy is hiding among a willing or unwilling civilian population that no action may be taken against them and you just have to deal with it? If so, then thank God they aren't following that rule and neither would anyone else.

[Wanderer]

Still... given that at least in the clips shown above the terrorists (yes.. i do call Hamas personnel as terrorists) fled very rapidly after firing the weapons it seems rather pointless to toss artillery shells at the firing location (like the UN school case). As the IDF has had to know - or then they really lack on the intelligence department - that a) terrorists have already fled, b) target area is UN school, c) non-combatants are sheltering there shelling the area seems to me to have been a stupid choice to begin with.

And after those news its kinda hard to believe that IDF strikes would actually have had any better than 10% rate on killing the actual Hamas (or other extremists) combatants. After all IDF has also succeeded in blue on blue incidents so it kinda leaves room for a thought wheather with that accuracy of information the IDF would be able to hit any actual combatants (hostile combatants that is)...

And besides as the Israeli are/were blocking international journalists (as reported by news agencies) from entering the Gaza i cant really say i would trust IDF reports on the incidents.

BBC News

...
Casualty claims in Gaza cannot be independently verified.

Israel is refusing to let international journalists into Gaza, despite a supreme court ruling to allow a limited number of reporters to enter the territory. [/qoute]

[Mars]

Trash, I seem to remember you defending the Serbian conflict as merely something that needed doing. I think that Isreal is wrong to have attacked, but I'm confused at the apparent switch of opinion.

Still... given that at least in the clips shown above the terrorists (yes.. i do call Hamas personnel as terrorists) fled very rapidly after firing the weapons it seems rather pointless to toss artillery shells at the firing location (like the UN school case). As the IDF has had to know - or then they really lack on the intelligence department - that a) terrorists have already fled, b) target area is UN school, c) non-combatants are sheltering there shelling the area seems to me to have been a stupid choice to begin with.

Military will never be an effective tool against terrorists, I don't think.

[Scuddie]

I don't think anyone in their right mind is going to argue whether or not Israel is targeting schools, mosques, hospitals, etc specifically, or that they were firing artillery shells at rocket sites.  I also don't think anyone in their right mind would dispute that Israel isn't taking responsibility for ANYTHING they are doing.  And their 10:1 'collateral damage' policy really shows.  I think that's what everyone is pissed off about.

The three hour (lol) humanitarian (again, lol) window wasn't in response to the school being blown up, it was in response to the outcry that came because of it.

[Mars]

Honestly, governments aren't ever really going to "care" responding to public outcry is something that not every government does, I think it counts for something. Also, why would Isreal target schools and Mosques for fun? It's not like it would help their image.

[Polpolion]

I'll say that the blatant disregard of human life on both sides is appalling. Frankly, I've seen enough of my middle-eastern friends swear revenge on Israel and call them "sub-human", and I don't like how people have been saying Israel keeps the Palestinians locked up in Gaza.