[TrashMan]

Exaggerated counterattacks? You mean to say that “one of the most powerful armies in the world” has been bombing Gaza for days, deploying massive air power, dropping hundreds of bombs, and ultimately killing a grand total of 50 civilians or so in the “most crowded place on earth?”
There are two options here: A) The Israeli army is not targeting civilians, or B) Israeli pilots suck. We tend to go with option A.

Israel goes to incredible lengths to avoid civilian casualties, by deploying precise ammunition and specialized techniques. In fact, nobody in the world tries to do this harder than Israel. Even endangering the lives of her own soldiers.

ROTFLOL
 


Oh please....430 dead, 2000 injured in just a few days...all that over several rockets fired.
And you're telling me all those dead and injured are terrorists? Heck, if 10% of all casualties are actually terrorist, I'd be rather surprised.

There was a interview in the paper with a israeli girl, who condones the attack on palestinian civilians, cause they elected Haman, and brought this on themselves by supporting them. I recall hearing a similar argument about there being no real civilian..only it came from Osama Bin Laden!

[Androgeos Exeunt]

So, the destruction of the state of Israel is not an option. But neither is for Israel (government and military) to continue to act like utter morons.

Personally, I really don't care who was there first historicly (cause you can ALWAYS go back even further in history to make stupid claims). I just care who lives there now and how he lives there.

MEh..I bet Nuke would just say - nuke em all! Then there will be peace. No man, no problem.
These days I find myself moving ever closer to his POW.

The Israelis seem to be saying that Hamas started it, so they're repaying the favour.

...and I believe you mean POV, TrashMan. POW is something quite different.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Yeah how many Israelis have died to these rockets attacks? 10?? 12?? Certainly no where near 400 or whatever the hell.

And from what I've heard the Israelis were the ones violating the cease fire in the first place, launching raids and the like while World Attention was directed elsewhere (US Elections).

[CKid]

*UPDATE*
Israel is currently deploying ground forces into Gaza.

[Bob-san]

Exaggerated counterattacks? You mean to say that “one of the most powerful armies in the world” has been bombing Gaza for days, deploying massive air power, dropping hundreds of bombs, and ultimately killing a grand total of 50 civilians or so in the “most crowded place on earth?”
There are two options here: A) The Israeli army is not targeting civilians, or B) Israeli pilots suck. We tend to go with option A.

Israel goes to incredible lengths to avoid civilian casualties, by deploying precise ammunition and specialized techniques. In fact, nobody in the world tries to do this harder than Israel. Even endangering the lives of her own soldiers.

ROTFLOL
 


Oh please....430 dead, 2000 injured in just a few days...all that over several rockets fired.
And you're telling me all those dead and injured are terrorists? Heck, if 10% of all casualties are actually terrorist, I'd be rather surprised.

There was a interview in the paper with a israeli girl, who condones the attack on palestinian civilians, cause they elected Haman, and brought this on themselves by supporting them. I recall hearing a similar argument about there being no real civilian..only it came from Osama Bin Laden!

ROTFLOL
 

Not to mention the fact that the vast, vast majority of those killed in these attacks have been Hamas militants! About 1/4 of those killed are civilians--the rest are Hamas law-enforcement, security, and military. Overall, the IDF is doing a very precise job at targeting Hamas.

[Mobius]

Here's an honest question: how well can Hamas(/Islamic Jihad/etc) aim those rockets? Granted, they have a lot of practice, but from what I've seen and heard (not in person, granted), they seem pretty primitive. Are they actually targeting schools etc with them, or are they just aiming at populated areas?

They are, mostly, free-flight artillery rockets of WW2 or 50's vintage design, somewhat updated. The weapons were probably manufactured within the last ten years, but I'm not sure even Hamas knows this for sure. To some extent, they are not meant to fly entirely in a straight line, but to disperse somewhat because that is a useful thing for their original application. Still, they should be good for an error radius of something like a hundred meters from the aim point at absolute worst.

That sounds like a large number, but in functional terms it really isn't. A hundred meters is about the campus size of a large school, and it represents the worst-case scenario; most of the time I would imagine the error is down to twenty-five meters. They are not complicated weapons and do not require very much, if any, skill to operate.

I would assume that Hamas is most probably hitting what they mean to at least fifty percent of the time. Their lethality failure can be attributed to the fact that are using extended-range versions of the rocket with small warheads, and that the fuzing mechanism for the rockets has no delay. They go off on impact with any roof or wall, outside the building, where the majority of its explosive force is wasted.

They work pretty much like WWII era V1 German rockets and can't be aimed carefully. Whoever launches them knows that the rockets will eventually hit a city and cause casualties.

The secondary objective - pardon the definition - simply is to scare people. The continuous threat of incoming rockets MUST have some kind of influence on the population.

[Bob-san]

Here's an honest question: how well can Hamas(/Islamic Jihad/etc) aim those rockets? Granted, they have a lot of practice, but from what I've seen and heard (not in person, granted), they seem pretty primitive. Are they actually targeting schools etc with them, or are they just aiming at populated areas?

They are, mostly, free-flight artillery rockets of WW2 or 50's vintage design, somewhat updated. The weapons were probably manufactured within the last ten years, but I'm not sure even Hamas knows this for sure. To some extent, they are not meant to fly entirely in a straight line, but to disperse somewhat because that is a useful thing for their original application. Still, they should be good for an error radius of something like a hundred meters from the aim point at absolute worst.

That sounds like a large number, but in functional terms it really isn't. A hundred meters is about the campus size of a large school, and it represents the worst-case scenario; most of the time I would imagine the error is down to twenty-five meters. They are not complicated weapons and do not require very much, if any, skill to operate.

I would assume that Hamas is most probably hitting what they mean to at least fifty percent of the time. Their lethality failure can be attributed to the fact that are using extended-range versions of the rocket with small warheads, and that the fuzing mechanism for the rockets has no delay. They go off on impact with any roof or wall, outside the building, where the majority of its explosive force is wasted.

They work pretty much like WWII era V1 German rockets and can't be aimed carefully. Whoever launches them knows that the rockets will eventually hit a city and cause casualties.

The secondary objective - pardon the definition - simply is to scare people. The continuous threat of incoming rockets MUST have some kind of influence on the population.

Pretty big influence it seems. Israel has been keeping schools out in the south (according to reports), which is good news and safer. A school was hit a few days ago by a rocket. Without warning, that could have killed dozens of children. Anyways--Israel's incoming-rocket warnings have kept most civilians safe.

[Sandwich]

Kassam rockets are generally inaccurate, whatever that means. They're aimed more or less in the general direction and launched. Over the past number of years, I've gotten around 3-4 SMS newsflashes per month about another Kassam that hit open land in the North-West Negev (the area where Gaza is situated).

But the inaccuracy doesn't bother the Hamas much - contrary to what Mobius said, terrorizing people is the primary objective, not the secondary one.

Another point I want to address is the comparisons between numbers of dead and injured. Israel is not particularly trying to respond with proportionate force - eye for an eye and all that. Between individuals that makes sense, but on a national level, it's a petty way of reacting to an offense. Israel's responding with the force necessary to get the job done.

That job is to stop the rocket fire on Israeli civilians. Everything is pointing to that - attacking manufacturing locations and launch facilities, erecting a blockade to prevent further smuggling of armaments into the Gaza Strip, and now sending in ground forces. If the ground operation is anything like what we did in Jenin in 2002 (the very effective Operation Defensive Shield), the soldiers will be going "from house to house", as it were, searching for explosives labs and weapons caches, and demolishing them.

[Flipside]

Much as I hate to say it, because I dislike condoning any sides actions, Sandwich is right.

This isn't just a racial situation, it isn't just a religious situation, it's a political situation, you can be certain the Jewish people will only put up with so much before they start asking 'Why did we vote in these leaders who do nothing to protect us?'

By attacking Israel, Hamas force a response, they know this, it's what they are hoping for, because the more they can be viewed as persecuted, the more sympathy they get from surrounding nations.

Hamas know they couldn't last long if Israel really let loose, but Israel know that they have enemies on all sides, it's a very difficult equation to balance, but you can be assured that what Hamas want to happen is for lots of innocents to die for their cause, so that they can appeal to outside nations for help, that, to my mind, is what this provocation is all about.

I don't agree with what is going on in Gaza with regards to the blockade, but then, I think of all the responses possible, Hamas have deliberately picked the one most destructive to their own people, and I find that prety appalling, since it suggests to me that this is more about what Hamas want than what the Palestinian people(and, quite frankly, the entire area) need.

Israel is hardly Super Happy Fun Ball, and you definitely don't want to taunt it.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Israel is probably the most technologically advanced country in the Middle East, but it seems that most of the Arab nations do not accept its existence.

[General Battuta]

Israel is probably the most technologically advanced country in the Middle East, but it seems that most of the Arab nations do not accept its existence.

Thanks for the update!

Actually, some diplomatic progress on that front in recent years. More countries have official diplomatic ties to Israel nowadays.

[Nuclear1]

*waits patiently for someone to give AE a "Captain Obvious" title*

[TrashMan]

*UPDATE*
Israel is currently deploying ground forces into Gaza.

I honestly believe they keep pummeling the infrastructure in Gaza deliberately, so it would remain undeveloped and less of a threat technology-wise.

Not to mention the fact that the vast, vast majority of those killed in these attacks have been Hamas militants! About 1/4 of those killed are civilians--the rest are Hamas law-enforcement, security, and military. Overall, the IDF is doing a very precise job at targeting Hamas.

Sez WHO?
Who exactly is a Hamas militant? Anyone on their payroll? Anyone who voted for them? It's a very, very slippery slope there, especially since foreign reporters have limited to no acess to those areas.

[Sandwich]

Not to mention the fact that the vast, vast majority of those killed in these attacks have been Hamas militants! About 1/4 of those killed are civilians--the rest are Hamas law-enforcement, security, and military. Overall, the IDF is doing a very precise job at targeting Hamas.

Sez WHO?
Who exactly is a Hamas militant? Anyone on their payroll? Anyone who voted for them? It's a very, very slippery slope there, especially since foreign reporters have limited to no acess to those areas.

This article gives some information on how they're deciding targets: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733158821&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

EDIT: And this blog post sheds some interesting light on how religiously-oriented Hamas is, and how they will never be satisfied with Israel returning to pre-1967 borders: http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/01/nizar_rayyan_of_hamas_on_gods.php

[Lucika]

I can't see why the international community tolerate this... such negligence caused WWII.

(OK, even though Europe or USA are far and this is none of their concern, I'd say that the locals should intervene)

[Splinter]

Exaggerated counterattacks? You mean to say that “one of the most powerful armies in the world” has been bombing Gaza for days, deploying massive air power, dropping hundreds of bombs, and ultimately killing a grand total of 50 civilians or so in the “most crowded place on earth?”
There are two options here: A) The Israeli army is not targeting civilians, or B) Israeli pilots suck. We tend to go with option A.

Israel goes to incredible lengths to avoid civilian casualties, by deploying precise ammunition and specialized techniques. In fact, nobody in the world tries to do this harder than Israel. Even endangering the lives of her own soldiers.

ROTFLOL
 


Oh please....430 dead, 2000 injured in just a few days...all that over several rockets fired.
And you're telling me all those dead and injured are terrorists? Heck, if 10% of all casualties are actually terrorist, I'd be rather surprised.

There was a interview in the paper with a israeli girl, who condones the attack on palestinian civilians, cause they elected Haman, and brought this on themselves by supporting them. I recall hearing a similar argument about there being no real civilian..only it came from Osama Bin Laden!

You know what is even funnier? When the target for an airstrike is in a heavily populated area the Airforce calls peoples houses to warn them away and then later drops a sound bomb over the target area they have also dropped leaflets warning people away from certain areas all this to give the civilians even more time to evacuate even though this also gives the Hamas time to get out. And also a pretty funny thing is how the ground forces are going through Gaza with Megaphones warning families to stay inside or clear the area but by doing so they are revealing their own position to the Hamas and putting thier lives on the line just on the off chance that they can save an innocent one. Hilarious. 

 

[Bobboau]

you guys really should stop playing nice, it isn't getting you anywhere.

[Mika]

you guys really should stop playing nice, it isn't getting you anywhere.

To Israel's defense, this is what world has requested them to do. And now it should be quite clear that it didn't work, (which is what Israel assumed before pullout but did it anyway because of the international pressure) so the UN has to change their view. Putting too much pressure on neighboring Arab countries could cause them to start building-up their arsenals.

I cannot accept direct civilian targeting since then Isreali would be no better than terrorists, but I'm all for a reasonable response. Which is what Israel seems to be doing at the moment. Especially if they have started ground operations.

Although, I think there are quite a lot of UN mandates requesting Isreal to pull back to 1967 borders. And declaring Jerusalem as international city. But I suppose those occupied areas have been occupied because of military signifigance, making firing rockets downwards towards Isreali cities impossible. But I don't understand all the reasons behind that they were partially settled.

Sandwich, I recall the guy who told me about their little incident with some Palestinians said that those guys did have a weapon which should have hit the target if any of them knew how to aim. I'm sorry about being fuzzy about the details but I won't go any further describing the incident so that nobody can figure out the what took place and who were involved. I'm sure you'll understand.

Mika

[Polpolion]

I can't see why the international community tolerate this... such negligence caused WWII.

(OK, even though Europe or USA are far and this is none of their concern, I'd say that the locals should intervene)

If the locals intervene, then all that would happen is yet another middle-eastern war where Israel kills everyone. (Figuratively. See the 6 day war.)

Personally, I don't know enough about the situation to make any decisions. I've heard that people in Giza are starving to death, I've heard that Israel are deliberately targeting Mosques and Hospitals specifically to kill civillians, I've heard that Hamas is Hiding in Mosques and Hospitals so Israel bombs them and kills civilians, I've heard that everything is Israel's fault and they should all die, I've heard that Hamas don't actually have the best interest for people in mind, much less their own people...

[Splinter]

boom...