[Bob-san]

The problem is both fight for their right to exist. I believe Israel has a firm right to exist, but that very existence brews thousands of years of armed conflict. What I found interesting is how Egypt is taking Israel's side. If the other Muslim countries did the same thing that Egypt did with Israel (acknowledge their right to exist), I think middle-east conflict would simmer down.

[chief1983]

Egypt just doesn't want the IAF to blow up the Suez Canal like the threatened to all those years ago.  It's not like their bombs are any weaker now

[IceFire]

The million dollar question is...what should Israel do?  They did try unsuccessfully for another cease fire agreement and it seems like Hamas just keeps firing rockets into Israel.  They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.  Take action, take inaction, try and negotiate....seems like these are all non starters.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Someone in the region should just invade both and just be done with it. Both states have demonstrated inability of coexisting with each other. Solution? They both stop existing.

You sound like a Shivan now...

...then again, I share similar sentiments, only that I prefer the use of nukes if something as such was not so barbaric.

[StarSlayer]

yeah cause using nuclear weapons are funny like cancer

To further expand i think Ghost was aiming for a third party to attempt to subjugate them into peace not that they needed to have a mass genocide of both parties which judging by your comment you seem to advocate if only nukes were so ... unclean

[Black Wolf]

yeah cause using nuclear weapons are funny like cancer

Nukes are much funnier than cancer.

Israel will get nuked sooner or later though. It's just inevitable. Not neccesarily by a foreign country, but if I were a muslim terrorist with a rogue nuke, I know I'd have to think long and hard before I tried to smuggle it into the distant enemy (US) when I had those much closer and more direct enemies at my doorstep. The only thing that would stop that, of course, would be collateral damage to my friends and sacred sites, so I'd have to think hard.

But still, it's got a higher chance than pretty much any other country other than Pakistan and India IMO.

[ssmit132]

yeah cause using nuclear weapons are funny like cancer

Nukes are much funnier than cancer.

Only in fiction - in Real Life, nukes are not funny. 

[Bobboau]

The only thing that would stop that, of course, would be collateral damage to my friends and sacred sites, so I'd have to think hard.

then you'd think 'Tel Aviv'

[Turambar]

This'll do wonders for recruitment.

[karajorma]

The million dollar question is...what should Israel do?  They did try unsuccessfully for another cease fire agreement and it seems like Hamas just keeps firing rockets into Israel.  They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.  Take action, take inaction, try and negotiate....seems like these are all non starters.

You have to remember that Israel are responsible for Hamas being in control in the first place. They had a much better chance with the PLO who are much more moderate and Who would have stomped on Hamas from a great height if they were in charge. Rocket attacks from Hamas would have been a challenge to their authority and if Israel had understood that they might have actually been able to broker a peace deal. 

Instead they spent years and years trying to drive the PLO from power by hamstringing them only to have Hamas win the elections because the PLO were seen as ineffectual.

[Splinter]

To be honest they're not at the same level, at least in terms of casualties inflicted to the enemy's population.

Israel is killing much more than its counterpart...

Umm yes... this is the goal in war to kill them before they kill you. Unless you somehow envision WWII fighters sitting down and deciding that each side will lose 50 people on this particular day of fighting cause it's only fair. 

"Being militarily weak does not make the Palestinians right."

But Palestinians are still killing people.

Yes, of course, but Israeli counterattacks tend to do much more damage(on purpose), and that sucks...

Such discussion is counterproductive. The fact is, more people are murdered in the US in a month than than have died in the current Israeli offensive. If this violence is to stop, both sides need to stop with the vengeance and the pride.

We do now it's not going to stop, at least not now. It'd make much more sense to prevent Israel from exaggerating with its attacks. Obviously, both sides should stop killing people...but it's much more doable for the UN or another important authority to stop or relent Israel's exaggerate counterattacks.

Exaggerated counterattacks? You mean to say that “one of the most powerful armies in the world” has been bombing Gaza for days, deploying massive air power, dropping hundreds of bombs, and ultimately killing a grand total of 50 civilians or so in the “most crowded place on earth?”
There are two options here: A) The Israeli army is not targeting civilians, or B) Israeli pilots suck. We tend to go with option A.

Israel goes to incredible lengths to avoid civilian casualties, by deploying precise ammunition and specialized techniques. In fact, nobody in the world tries to do this harder than Israel. Even endangering the lives of her own soldiers.

The problem is both fight for their right to exist. I believe Israel has a firm right to exist, but that very existence brews thousands of years of armed conflict. What I found interesting is how Egypt is taking Israel's side. If the other Muslim countries did the same thing that Egypt did with Israel (acknowledge their right to exist), I think middle-east conflict would simmer down.

See this is where most people make the mistake. The people fighting Israel aren't fighting to exist. They are fighting to annihilate and they aren't ashamed of flaunting it. The fact that most the world chooses to ignore it is simply disturbing. Some of the people supporting the people fighting Israel are fighting for the right to exist because they forgot what they started fighting for (annihilation). Or they simply gave up on the prospect of wiping Israel off the map for the time being.

The million dollar question is...what should Israel do?  They did try unsuccessfully for another cease fire agreement and it seems like Hamas just keeps firing rockets into Israel.  They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.  Take action, take inaction, try and negotiate....seems like these are all non starters.

You have to remember that Israel are responsible for Hamas being in control in the first place. They had a much better chance with the PLO who are much more moderate and Who would have stomped on Hamas from a great height if they were in charge. Rocket attacks from Hamas would have been a challenge to their authority and if Israel had understood that they might have actually been able to broker a peace deal. 

Instead they spent years and years trying to drive the PLO from power by hamstringing them only to have Hamas win the elections because the PLO were seen as ineffectual.

 

You are not serious! Hamas is on the top of the list of people Israel doesn't want anywhere near them. How could you predict that the ousting of the PLO would cause the Palestinian people, years down the line, to elect a terrorist organization into power? the Hamas rise to power? and thinking the PLO would have stopped Hamas? The PLO WAS in power. And they refused to stop the Hamas what makes you think they would act any differently now?

[Scuddie]

Israel goes to incredible lengths to avoid civilian casualties

I lol'd.

[karajorma]

You are not serious! Hamas is on the top of the list of people Israel doesn't want anywhere near them. How could you predict that the ousting of the PLO would cause the Palestinian people, years down the line, to elect a terrorist organization into power? the Hamas rise to power? and thinking the PLO would have stopped Hamas? The PLO WAS in power. And they refused to stop the Hamas what makes you think they would act any differently now?

For the same reason Saddam stomped on Al-Qaeda from a great height. They were a threat to his power.

In the case of the PLO it was better to stick with the devil you knew. I saw the rise of Hamas coming. I could see that by constantly undermining Arafat the Israeli government were simply opening the door for extremists. If you didn't that hardly makes my analysis wrong.

And the simple fact is that I disagree with your claims that Israel wants peace. Hamas has actually made plenty of claims that it wants peace too. And until Israel respects the 1967 borders, I won't believe either of you.


BTW I lol'd at the line about electing a terrorist organisation. Perhaps you should check what your countries past leaders were up to when the British controlled Palestine.

[Splinter]

Israel goes to incredible lengths to avoid civilian casualties

I lol'd.

You can laugh all you like but Sandy can even tell you that to avoid civilian casualties there was a group of like 8 or 12 soldiers that were blown to bits by booby traps because they went house to house instead of just napalming the whole place. And until someone has seen the situation for themselves to dogmatically judge according to what any certain media outlet or outlets want you to see is simply arrogance.

You are not serious! Hamas is on the top of the list of people Israel doesn't want anywhere near them. How could you predict that the ousting of the PLO would cause the Palestinian people, years down the line, to elect a terrorist organization into power? the Hamas rise to power? and thinking the PLO would have stopped Hamas? The PLO WAS in power. And they refused to stop the Hamas what makes you think they would act any differently now?

For the same reason Saddam stomped on Al-Qaeda from a great height. They were a threat to his power.

In the case of the PLO it was better to stick with the devil you knew. I saw the rise of Hamas coming. I could see that by constantly undermining Arafat the Israeli government were simply opening the door for extremists. If you didn't that hardly makes my analysis wrong.

And the simple fact is that I disagree with your claims that Israel wants peace. Hamas has actually made plenty of claims that it wants peace too. And until Israel respects the 1967 borders, I won't believe either of you.


BTW I lol'd at the line about electing a terrorist organisation. Perhaps you should check what your countries past leaders were up to when the British controlled Palestine.

Yes, but they didn't it's not a hypothetical situation. They had the power and they did nothing to stop them.

Arafat WAS an extremist. The whole first and second intifada started and ended under his leadership! There was no opening the doors for extremists by undermining Arafat. They were already there. Everyone was already in place and doing business. The only thing that has changed since then was that the Palestinian people chose to elect a faction with the ultimate goal of the annihilation of another people.

You can disagree with 'claims' but what about facts? Here is where you get it really REALLY wrong. Take Gilo for example. it's a neighborhood in Jerusalem with around 40 or 50 thousand people. to get from Gilo into Jerusalem proper you have to drive down the hill it's perched on and viola! your in J-town. On the way down the hill stretching on either side is a little neighborhood or town called beit tzafafa. When you look at this town you notice three things. 1. it is Arab Muslim town. there are about 4 mosques sticking up. 2. there is not an Israeli checkpoint IDF person police officer or even a measly security guard for as far as the eye can see... and this is between Gilo and Jerusalem... 3. They are doing great business. They live in nice houses. they own stores that all the Israelis go to all the time. And they are happy to live there.

These particular Muslim Arabs decided that they weren't going to be stupid like most of people living in Gaza and the West Bank. They decided they wanted to live in peace and accepted what Israel had to offer them in the way of economic growth and free trade etc... I work in an Israeli business where 80% of the employees are Arabs and most are making more money than me.

So if you want let the media feed you lies about how Israel will never accept the Arabs or Muslims or both there is not much more I can do about it. But in this day and age I would say trust no one. Everyone has their own agendas. Don't even believe what I have told you. Come see for yourself.

I have the uncanny feeling that most people in the world would agree that there is a slightly large difference between an organization whose stated goal was the liberation of it's people and it's country by targeting military infrastructure and an organization whose stated goal is the annihilation of a people and the targeting of civilians. just a hunch though 

[karajorma]

Hamas have actually stated that their goal is to get Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders. Which therefore makes them "an organization whose stated goal was the liberation of it's people and it's country by targeting military infrastructure "

Funny how quickly people forget when the boot is on the other foot. I've never seen a single Israeli claim that killing IDF members is legitimate. Are you going to tell me it is?

Fact is that both sides are a bunch of hypocrites.


And as for your claim about wanting peace. Give up the bar on the "Right to Return" and then tell me you do. You're happy to have Muslims in your country but only on your terms. Only if they are a minority (despite having been a majority before the formation of Israel).

[captain-custard]

for me the problem is the foundation of the Israel state was built on guilt ( the worlds guilt after the second world war) but its strange no territory was given to the gypsy's or the mentally ill , both were murdered in there millions , but then again they did not have god on there side .............


we have seen that Israel says that they have tried everything ..... everything except returning to the 1967 boundaries......

i do not say that the Palestinians have the right to attack the ppl of Israel , but when you take in to consideration that the ppl in gazza live in what can only be described as a concentration camp, were basic human rights are refused the act of rebellion and to "fight back" can only be seen as normal...

[IPAndrews]

i do not say that the Palestinians have the right to attack the ppl of Israel , but

Sorry to pick on you in particular andicirk but I am sick of hearing comments like this from Palestinian sympathisers. Let's be clear about this, there is no "but". It doesn't matter what injustices the Palestinians have suffered, or how comparatively ineffective their weapons are, the Palestinians do not have a right to try and kill Israeli civilians. Only 30 or so people have been killed by these rockets in the last few years. So what! If I were living there maybe I would be one of the Israeli dead. Maybe one of my loved ones. The Israeli government do have a right to protect themselves. Are they being heavy handed about it? Damn right they are, but demonising them for trying to protect their population is shaky moral ground.

Of course the latest Isralei attempt to bring this to a conclusion will fail, as have all others. In the final analysis Ghostavo is right. These two populations clearly cannot co-exist in such close proximity. There will be no peace unless these populations are somehow separated, be it by destruction, displacement, or a third party. This is precisely the kind of harsh and inconvenient reality the international community must face if the human race is ever to achieve any measure of peace. After all Gaza is a comparatively small place making this a comparatively small problem.

[Splinter]

Hamas have actually stated that their goal is to get Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders. Which therefore makes them "an organization whose stated goal was the liberation of it's people and it's country by targeting military infrastructure "

 

Hamas - Politics on Wikipedia

The unexpurgated text of the Hamas Charter, first published in 1988

I like article 13 allot but all of them are good.  :yes:

the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement.

There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.

so "Hamas have actually stated that their goal is to get Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders. Which therefore makes them"... Liars. It's what they are best at and what they are told is allowed by their religion if it will give them the upper hand to allow them to destroy their enemies. Seriously I can't believe people actually think they know who these people are and what they intend to do in this world without understanding what they live and die for. "Article Eight: The Slogan of the Hamas
Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief."

Funny how quickly people forget when the boot is on the other foot. I've never seen a single Israeli claim that killing IDF members is legitimate. Are you going to tell me it is?

It's as legitimate as attacking any other nations armed forces. It's a legitimate deceleration of war. I think it's terrible what happened to the captured and dead soldiers in this conflict but that is what they are here for. And when I was in the army that's what I was there for. To Protect the citizens and if it's called for to lay down my life to sustain theirs.

And as for your claim about wanting peace. Give up the bar on the "Right to Return" and then tell me you do. You're happy to have Muslims in your country but only on your terms. Only if they are a minority (despite having been a majority before the formation of Israel).

Hey When the Palestinians have their own state they can let whoever they want into it. But until then why would Israel do about the dumbest thing it could possibly do and allow hundreds of thousands of refugees back into the West Bank and Gaza so that you can have even more hopelessly fanatical people who want to kill you in one place?

And you are Damn right Israel won't let Muslims in the country except under their terms! Just like they won't let anyone into Israel except under those terms. I would like to see one nation that says "hey come immigrate to our country and form your own laws and rules." So if Muslims want to come to Israel and become Israeli citizens then they will have to abide by the laws and rules of Israel.

And they are still a majority in the original plan for Israel. Lest we forget that 2/3 of what was going to be declared by the UN as Israel was given to the Arabs who were in the land (there were no 'Palestinians' back then) and is today called Jordan. But there were those who said they would rather live under Jewish rule in Israel than move. Understandable. But some of those that said that, lied. and they attacked and were beaten. And besides if you want to go back to who was here first then you will spend all your time going back and forth since Israel has changed owners more times than a.... well something that has many different owners.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Do I think that religion is overly abused here?

[Snail]

I love how people seem be able to pull statistics and facts out of nowhere in this thread.